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Topic: Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs (Read 29237 times) previous topic - next topic
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Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Thought I'd share with the forum what I do to the ever decreasing number of new CD releases I buy.  I've done this because a couple of times I've heard/read that nothing can be done for a dynamically squashed CD.  While nothing will sound like the CD well mastered in the first place, a bit can be done.

Given I buy new titles only from a hard core selection of artists because CDs are all so bad these days, it's sad that I don't rush home and stick them in my CD player and enjoy anymore.

Instead I stick them in the computer, rip and load into a wave editor to see what the damage is:

Clipping - must be dealt with first before you can take on the soft limiting.  As per others on this forum I use the Geniesys DeClipper 2.5 DX plugin (http://www.silksound.com/geniesys/).  What a pity development of this tool stopped.  It has serious rough edges but is way better than Audition's and the joke that is Soundforge's declipper.

Having removed the clipping as best can be done, the next weapon I use which to date has gone unheralded as far as I know is a free VST plugin call Dominion, from Digitalfishphones (http://www.digitalfishphones.com/main.php?item=2&subItem=4).

This plugin is designed for musicians to purposely distort the dynamics of their instrument recordings to get a new sound they like.  For our purposes only the first processing stage is of interest.  The remaining parts must be neutralised by setting Saturation to "0", HF details level to "0", and Sustain level and length to "0".

The bit we need is called "Attack".  This is an envelope based compressor/expander.  Unlike the conventional expanders some of you will have tried, this one works by calculating a moving average of the envelope average and peak amplitude, and either amplifies (expands) or reduces (compresses) the difference.

It is capable of producing waveforms that look like what we want, and with a bit (a lot!) of practice can sound at least much better than the raw CD noise did.

The most serious draw back I've found is that it seems to leave behind somewhat the bottom octave (the low bass), so I've been using mild boost at the very bottom end, which seems to work best if done before expansion.

If anyone is actually interested in my efforts at dynamic restoration I'm happy to post more gory details on what I do, start to finish????


rysw

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #1 –
A foobar2000 DSP would be nice for this

Edit: My attempt to use the plugins in foobar was miserable. I loaded Dominion with the beta VST wrapper, but it applied some weird noise. I loaded Geniesys DX via foo_dsp_winamp, but no sound was ever fed through it
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #2 –
Nero WaveEditor 3 has beautiful declipper which is much better than DeClipper 2.5.

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #3 –
I would like to see a sample of an unedited clip and an edited clip.

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Heaud on
I would like to see a sample of an unedited clip and an edited clip.


Not sure how much can be told from a picture - I can generate nice looking clips with conventional compressor/expanders but they always sounded really bad.

Here is the first and title track  (Edit - wrong - this the first track is "Not Going Away" -Doh) off Ozzy Osbourne's latest "Black Rain" mastered by Vlado the destroyer.  First is the original, second is post treatment.
(left channel shown, screenshots of wave files loaded into Audacity)




Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #5 –
As you said, a picture says really nothing. Why don't you just upload a few samples to show us how you improved the sound? Perhaps loudness-matched mp3 samples called 'x' and 'y' would do, so everyone who likes can do a fair listening comparison and tell us which one he prefers.

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #6 –
I think this sort of thing is really interesting. I work with digital audio as a hobby after all

I have some old music recordings I'd love to get more range out of, and also some old clipped recordings I'd love to declip and THEN get more range out of.

So yeah, I'm all ears

- Spike

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #7 –
I must admit, I really like your sample x. The annoying clipping has gone (didn't know they do such audible distortion even on that kind of music). First I thought you made the bassdrum stand out a bit too much, but then I listened to y for the first time and noticed that it has the same problem. Looks like you have a new hobby now

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Polouess on
As you said, a picture says really nothing. Why don't you just upload a few samples to show us how you improved the sound? Perhaps loudness-matched mp3 samples called 'x' and 'y' would do, so everyone who likes can do a fair listening comparison and tell us which one he prefers.


I have done this - but with a little reluctance, for the reasons stated in the post, i.e. Many people won't here any difference, especially on PC speakers, and sub 30 sec samples don't test the fatigue issue of maximised volume CD's at all.

I've only done a single track so far (I'm supposed to be packing not posting!).  I chose a Shakira track not Ozzy as:
- Ozzy is hardly everyone's favourite and I'm personally not happy with the result anyway
- I think it is easier to hear the difference in a short sample with Shakira's voice, which to me sounds less like it is being played through a small radio after I'd finished with it

I'll be interested to hear you comments.  I'll post more samples if/when time permits.

Sample Shakira files before and after processing

Bye,
rysw

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #9 –
1 up 

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #10 –
With the caveat that I'd rather hear lossless samples without ReplayGain pre-applied (I can apply that myself  ), my opinion on the basis of these samples is that your processing method works.

There's clearly audible clipping in the vocal of the original - it sounds a little like the kind of clicks you might get on vinyl. You've reduced this dramatically in your processed version.

(At first, I thought the clicks were artefacts that you'd introduced. I couldn't believe a commercial CD would be so bad. However, decoding to .wav and looking at the waveforms revealed that it was the clippressed original which had the audible clicks, and the processed version which sounded clearly better).


Is it possible for you to run the restoration process over the clips in posts 2 and 13 of this thread...

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=26691

...I'd be very interested to hear what can be done, if you have the time please.

Cheers,
David.

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #11 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
There's clearly audible clipping in the vocal of the original - it sounds a little like the kind of clicks you might get on vinyl. You've reduced this dramatically in your processed version.


I didn't hear these -- where are they?

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #14 –
Very impressive. clearly prefer sample x.
And the difference is quite obvious.

I couldn't really hear any "clicks" in the vocal though. To me it sounds more like background noise (which perhaps may be called "rattle" or "chatter"?). The kind of noise coming out of a cheap stereo when volume is maxed-out, distorted and all loose parts resonate.
This noise is more noticeable in several places in the middle of the sample.

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #15 –
That was it - it was most prominent somewhere in the middle.

Not clicks like the record is scratched, but more like it's worn out. kdo described it well.

Cheers,
David.

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #16 –
Quote from: 2Bdecided on
Is it possible for you to run the restoration process over the clips in posts 2 and 13 of this thread...

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=26691

...I'd be very interested to hear what can be done, if you have the time please.

Cheers,
David.


I've posted my attempts on the two samples back on http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....mp;gopid=503684

Not that happy with either:

Angel seems to have seriously too much kick drum.  Volume maxed this means the rest of the instruments and vocals are modulated by the beat.  My results at unscrambling this with the Dominion plugin were only partially successful.  I had to fight a kick drum expanding out of control.

Long night is worse though.  It has a gritty sound, possibly induced by too much compression used before or during mixing.  No amount of dynamic expansion or other tricks seems to help much.

Let me know your thoughts.


Cheers,
rysw

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #17 –
Thanks for trying those. I agree that the processing isn't very successful on these tracks. Also, the bass line from Angel seems to have become somewhat quieter after your processing.

It's a shame - I was quite excited when I heard your first example. I guess there's a limit to what can be done to improve the worst recordings.

Cheers,
David.

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #18 –
I think it a good idea, but a dedicated DSP plugin for restoration like this should be developed IMHO. I'm not much into doubling my lossless collection.
Can't wait for a HD-AAC encoder :P

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #22 –
Quote from: rysw on
For our purposes only the first processing stage is of interest.  The remaining parts must be neutralised by setting Saturation to "0", HF details level to "0", and Sustain level and length to "0".

The bit we need is called "Attack".  This is an envelope based compressor/expander.  Unlike the conventional expanders some of you will have tried, this one works by calculating a moving average of the envelope average and peak amplitude, and either amplifies (expands) or reduces (compresses) the difference.

It is capable of producing waveforms that look like what we want, and with a bit (a lot!) of practice can sound at least much better than the raw CD noise did.


Hello,

I tried it a little. Some questions - Sustain lenght can be set 30 ms minimum, but not 0. Or did you mean, leave that untouched (default - 185 ms.)

And what do I have to set in Attack? Change level or lenght ? Level does not seems to affect much, is -25, 0 or 25...

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #23 –
it looks like you made the cd "softer"

unfortunately, once data is lost, it cannot be reproduced. manipulating it even more will result in more distortion.

Loudness Wars - Partial Restoration of loud CDs

Reply #24 –
Quote from: adlai on
it looks like you made the cd "softer"

unfortunately, once data is lost, it cannot be reproduced. manipulating it even more will result in more distortion.


Did you answer to my questions ?
If so, I did not understand a jack... care to elaborate ?