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Human Disease sample., very easy to ABX at V2.
/mnt
post Dec 10 2008, 01:24
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A sample for a track that I used on a test that has a noticable precho artifact that produces a raining noise in the background.
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Human_Disease.flac ( 3.29MB ) Number of downloads: 1186
 


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frozenspeed
post Dec 10 2008, 07:27
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I can't hear the rain noise on my crappy laptop speakers but I sure do love Skinny Puppy smile.gif

If you can post a FLAC of the wav clip too that would be great that way I can ABX it.

This post has been edited by frozenspeed: Dec 10 2008, 07:40
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2Bdecided
post Dec 10 2008, 11:16
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QUOTE (frozenspeed @ Dec 10 2008, 07:27) *
If you can post a FLAC of the wav clip too that would be great that way I can ABX it.
That FLAC is of the original.

FWIW I can't ABX lame 3.97 V2 vbr-new

Cheers,
David.
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/mnt
post Dec 10 2008, 12:45
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Maybe it my hardware (SB Audigy SE + Sen 215 HD) producing the artifact, since some of the Sound Blaster sound cards have known to have a crappy DSP that sucks at resampling. Anyway i will upgrade my sound card around Christmas or early next year, but atm cannot decide to go with a ASUS Xonar DX1 (PCI) or a X-Fi Extreme Gamer (hardware mixing on Linux would be really nice).

Am sure someone else can ABX this sample aswell. Anyway i did a ABX with the sample at V2 --vbr-new with LAME 3.97.

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6
2008/12/10 11:26:25

File A: C:\Temp\Human_Disease V2.mp3
File B: C:\Temp\Human_Disease.flac

11:26:25 : Test started.
11:26:56 : 01/01 50.0%
11:27:06 : 02/02 25.0%
11:27:16 : 03/03 12.5%
11:27:25 : 04/04 6.3%
11:27:38 : 05/05 3.1%
11:27:52 : 06/06 1.6%
11:28:04 : 07/07 0.8%
11:28:13 : 08/08 0.4%
11:28:19 : 09/09 0.2%
11:28:45 : 10/10 0.1%
11:29:06 : 11/11 0.0%
11:29:23 : 12/12 0.0%
11:29:24 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)


Sounds watery at around 0:01 - 0:03, at around 0:02 its noticable.

This post has been edited by /mnt: Dec 10 2008, 13:16


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greynol
post Dec 10 2008, 15:58
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QUOTE (/mnt @ Dec 10 2008, 03:45) *
Maybe it my hardware (SB Audigy SE + Sen 215 HD) producing the artifact, since some of the Sound Blaster sound cards have known to have a crappy DSP that sucks at resampling.
shock1.gif

I use fb2k's PPHS resampler in ultra mode when performing ABX tests. Regarding SB's crappy resampling, my Audigy (the oldest one with a firewire port) seems to be worse than my dead SB Live based on these tests:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=9772
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index....showtopic=65398


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/mnt
post Feb 27 2009, 22:55
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I brought a Sound Blaster X-Fi Xtreme Gamer soundcard this week, and decided to see if using a higher end soundcard might improve this sample. So far it's a nice upgrade; i got the Intel HD Audio case connectors working on it and the new GPL Linux drivers works fine with Ubuntu 8.10 with hardware mixing cool.gif , i can now play quake 1-3 and rtcw with a alsa or oss music app playing in the background.

LAME 3.97 -2 --vbr-new

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.1
2009/02/27 21:03:53

File A: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.flac
File B: C:\Temp\1 Human_Disease.mp3

21:03:53 : Test started.
21:04:30 : 01/01 50.0%
21:04:37 : 02/02 25.0%
21:04:43 : 03/03 12.5%
21:04:50 : 04/04 6.3%
21:04:59 : 05/05 3.1%
21:05:08 : 06/06 1.6%
21:05:22 : 07/07 0.8%
21:05:36 : 08/08 0.4%
21:05:50 : 09/09 0.2%
21:05:59 : 10/10 0.1%
21:06:08 : 11/11 0.0%
21:06:20 : 12/12 0.0%
21:06:26 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)


Sadly i can still hear the artifact, even if i haven't performed a ABX test in months. The first 5 secs has a metallic noise that produces a wet effect.

LAME 3.97 -V0 --vbr-new


CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.1
2009/02/27 21:13:50

File A: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.flac
File B: C:\Temp\1 Human_Disease V0.mp3

21:13:50 : Test started.
21:14:10 : 01/01 50.0%
21:14:37 : 02/02 25.0%
21:14:48 : 03/03 12.5%
21:15:07 : 04/04 6.3%
21:15:21 : 05/05 3.1%
21:15:40 : 06/06 1.6%
21:15:59 : 07/07 0.8%
21:16:06 : 08/08 0.4%
21:16:13 : 09/09 0.2%
21:16:33 : 10/10 0.1%
21:16:59 : 11/11 0.0%
21:17:11 : 12/12 0.0%
21:17:12 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)


An odd audible noise at over 0:02.

LAME 3.98 -V2

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.1
2009/02/27 21:22:35

File A: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.flac
File B: C:\Temp\1 Human_Disease v2 3.98.mp3

21:22:35 : Test started.
21:22:53 : 01/01 50.0%
21:22:57 : 02/02 25.0%
21:23:04 : 03/03 12.5%
21:23:19 : 04/04 6.3%
21:23:26 : 05/05 3.1%
21:23:35 : 06/06 1.6%
21:23:43 : 07/07 0.8%
21:23:48 : 08/08 0.4%
21:23:55 : 09/09 0.2%
21:24:25 : 10/10 0.1%
21:24:31 : 11/11 0.0%
21:24:37 : 12/12 0.0%
21:24:38 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)


The artifact also appears with LAME 3.98 sounds more metallic.


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/mnt
post Feb 28 2009, 22:41
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I tested the sample with other codecs aswell. It seems that even ogg, mpc and aac struggle with this sample on standard settings.

Musepack 1.16 --standard

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.1
2009/02/28 18:56:21

File A: C:\Temp\Human_Disease MPC 1.16 SV7 q7.mpc
File B: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.flac

18:56:21 : Test started.
18:56:48 : 01/01 50.0%
18:56:58 : 02/02 25.0%
18:57:25 : 03/03 12.5%
18:57:51 : 04/04 6.3%
18:57:58 : 05/05 3.1%
18:58:08 : 06/06 1.6%
18:58:20 : 07/07 0.8%
18:58:33 : 08/08 0.4%
18:58:45 : 09/09 0.2%
18:58:53 : 10/10 0.1%
18:59:00 : 11/11 0.0%
18:59:07 : 12/12 0.0%
18:59:26 : 13/13 0.0%
18:59:32 : 14/14 0.0%
18:59:42 : 15/15 0.0%
18:59:44 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 15/15 (0.0%)


Metallic noises at the start, just like the LAME encodings. Please note that "q7" on the filename is a typo it should've been "q5".

Nero AAC 1.3.3.0 -q 0.5

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.1
2009/02/28 19:07:13

File A: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.flac
File B: C:\Temp\Human_Disease.mp4

19:07:13 : Test started.
19:07:34 : 01/01 50.0%
19:07:40 : 02/02 25.0%
19:07:52 : 03/03 12.5%
19:08:01 : 04/04 6.3%
19:08:15 : 05/05 3.1%
19:08:27 : 06/06 1.6%
19:08:37 : 07/07 0.8%
19:09:00 : 08/08 0.4%
19:09:06 : 09/09 0.2%
19:09:14 : 10/10 0.1%
19:09:22 : 11/11 0.0%
19:09:33 : 12/12 0.0%
19:09:39 : 13/13 0.0%
19:09:40 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 13/13 (0.0%)


Metallic noises at the start aswell.

Nero AAC 1.3.3.0 -q 0.55

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.1
2009/02/28 19:10:13

File A: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.flac
File B: C:\Temp\Human_Disease q 55.mp4

19:10:13 : Test started.
19:10:50 : 01/01 50.0%
19:11:03 : 02/02 25.0%
19:11:15 : 02/03 50.0%
19:11:26 : 03/04 31.3%
19:11:38 : 04/05 18.8%
19:11:49 : 05/06 10.9%
19:12:11 : 05/07 22.7%
19:12:22 : 05/08 36.3%
19:12:35 : 06/09 25.4%
19:12:50 : 06/10 37.7%
19:12:57 : 07/11 27.4%
19:13:09 : 08/12 19.4%
19:13:17 : 09/13 13.3%
19:13:27 : 10/14 9.0%
19:13:31 : 11/15 5.9%
19:13:38 : 11/16 10.5%
19:13:43 : 11/17 16.6%
19:13:45 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 11/17 (16.6%)


Sometimes i can the hear the metallic noise, but it was hard to notice.

Vorbis aoTuV b5 -q 5

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.1
2009/02/28 19:36:01

File A: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.flac
File B: C:\Temp\Human_Disease.ogg

19:36:01 : Test started.
19:36:25 : 01/01 50.0%
19:36:36 : 02/02 25.0%
19:36:50 : 02/03 50.0%
19:36:53 : 03/04 31.3%
19:37:03 : 04/05 18.8%
19:37:17 : 05/06 10.9%
19:37:27 : 06/07 6.3%
19:37:34 : 07/08 3.5%
19:37:40 : 08/09 2.0%
19:37:47 : 09/10 1.1%
19:37:58 : 10/11 0.6%
19:38:03 : 11/12 0.3%
19:38:12 : 11/13 1.1%
19:38:22 : 12/14 0.6%
19:38:29 : 13/15 0.4%
19:38:35 : 14/16 0.2%
19:38:45 : 15/17 0.1%
19:38:52 : 16/18 0.1%
19:38:59 : 17/19 0.0%
19:39:10 : 18/20 0.0%
19:39:16 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 18/20 (0.0%)


Maybe q5 was abit too low for vorbis, anyway the metallic noise is present on this encode aswell, but it does sound different from other codecs. Just wondering if this could be a killer sample.


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rpp3po
post Feb 28 2009, 23:28
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Very interesting findings. Would it be possible that you try the following sample? It's Quicktime 7.6 true VBR AAC.

Attached File  Human_Disease.m4a ( 744.18K ) Number of downloads: 256

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robert
post Feb 28 2009, 23:55
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@/mnt
Creative advertizes the X-Fi cards with some "Crystalizer" feature to "enhance" MP3s. Maybe that feature has some side effects? (Or maybe any of the other post processing features they are proud of?)

This post has been edited by robert: Mar 1 2009, 00:00
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/mnt
post Feb 28 2009, 23:59
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QUOTE (rpp3po @ Feb 28 2009, 23:28) *
Very interesting findings. Would it be possible that you try the following sample? It's Quicktime 7.6 true VBR AAC.

Attached File  Human_Disease.m4a ( 744.18K ) Number of downloads: 256


CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.3
2009/02/28 23:07:12

File A: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.flac
File B: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.m4a

23:07:12 : Test started.
23:07:43 : 01/01 50.0%
23:07:53 : 02/02 25.0%
23:07:59 : 03/03 12.5%
23:08:09 : 04/04 6.3%
23:08:23 : 05/05 3.1%
23:08:28 : 06/06 1.6%
23:08:41 : 07/07 0.8%
23:09:16 : 08/08 0.4%
23:09:26 : 09/09 0.2%
23:09:30 : 10/10 0.1%
23:09:43 : 11/11 0.0%
23:09:57 : 12/12 0.0%
23:09:58 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)


The start of the sample sounds clean, no metallic noises at all. But at over 0.13 the disortion sounds different.

UPDATE: I have performed the test again since i found a noticable artifact on the Quicktime encoded file.

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.3
2009/02/28 23:28:11

File A: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.flac
File B: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.m4a

23:28:11 : Test started.
23:28:45 : 01/01 50.0%
23:28:51 : 02/02 25.0%
23:28:58 : 03/03 12.5%
23:29:16 : 04/04 6.3%
23:29:25 : 05/05 3.1%
23:29:47 : 06/06 1.6%
23:29:56 : 07/07 0.8%
23:30:06 : 08/08 0.4%
23:30:18 : 09/09 0.2%
23:30:30 : 10/10 0.1%
23:30:37 : 11/11 0.0%
23:30:49 : 12/12 0.0%
23:30:50 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)


At around 0:25 - 0:28 sounds weak and theres a artifact at 0:27.

QUOTE (robert @ Feb 28 2009, 23:55) *
@/mnt
Creative advertizes the X-Fi cards with some "Crystalizer" feature to "enhance" MP3s. Maybe that feature has some side effects?

I have the Crystalizer feature disabled, since it causes distortion with certain music.

EDIT: Added ABX results

This post has been edited by /mnt: Mar 1 2009, 00:39


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rpp3po
post Mar 5 2009, 22:26
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I have tried to repeat your tests. LAME 3.98.2 is instantly ABXable for me up to 145 kbit/s (V5). I have yet to go higher.

At first I couldn't find anything you have talked about in the signal. For everybody wanting to repeat these tests I recommend starting really low (as V7) to find what you have to look out for. I don't agree that the artifact is a raining noise. The original FLAC contains a raining noise starting at about 0.7 (like heavy rain hitting a street) and this noise is missing in the LAME encode (there's only some kind of pink noise left).

I'll try to work up to V2 now.

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.2
2009/03/05 22:06:32

File A: C:\windows\profiles\crossover\Desktop\My Mac Desktop\Human_Disease.flac
File B: C:\windows\profiles\crossover\Desktop\My Mac Desktop\Human_Disease.mp3

22:06:32 : Test started.
22:07:52 : 01/01  50.0%
22:08:14 : 02/02  25.0%
22:09:24 : 03/03  12.5%
22:09:38 : 04/04  6.3%
22:09:55 : 05/05  3.1%
22:10:07 : 06/06  1.6%
22:10:24 : 07/07  0.8%
22:10:34 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 7/7 (0.8%)


I couldn't find any difference for Nero and Quicktime AAC, yet. Could you elaborate further what you are hearing?

Edit/PS:

Well, I finally made it up to V2:


CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.2
2009/03/05 22:42:57

File A: C:\windows\profiles\crossover\Desktop\My Mac Desktop\Human_Disease.flac
File B: C:\windows\profiles\crossover\Desktop\My Mac Desktop\Human_Disease.mp3

22:42:57 : Test started.
22:43:45 : 01/01  50.0%
22:44:03 : 02/02  25.0%
22:45:11 : 03/03  12.5%
22:45:31 : 03/04  31.3%
22:45:55 : 04/05  18.8%
22:46:19 : 05/06  10.9%
22:46:39 : 06/07  6.3%
22:46:53 : 07/08  3.5%
22:47:09 : 08/09  2.0%
22:47:32 : 09/10  1.1%
22:47:58 : 10/11  0.6%
22:48:00 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/11 (0.6%)


I would never have called it "very easy to ABX at V2". Actually it was quite a pain. Either LAME 3.98.2 is considerably better or you can still hear much higher frequencies than I can (I'm around the 30's). I can't really say what difference I heard. The background noise (from 0:01-0:03) just has another character somehow.

Your sample already contains very loud pre-ringing, probably due to heavily filtered hi-hats. I guess that's what the encoder is choking on, though both AAC encoders seem to handle it fine.

This post has been edited by rpp3po: Mar 5 2009, 23:53
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/mnt
post Mar 7 2009, 17:30
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QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 5 2009, 22:26) *
Your sample already contains very loud pre-ringing, probably due to heavily filtered hi-hats. I guess that's what the encoder is choking on, though both AAC encoders seem to handle it fine.


I also wounder if the hi-hats at the start casuses problems some encoders; but IMO i find this sample to have plenty of problems, such as the desortion later on the sample that Helix chokes on. Also on the full track there is tonal desortion problems with LAME 3.97 -V2 --vbr-new, i.e at around 3:54 - 4:01.
5.

Speaking of AAC encoders, I found out that Nero AAC still chokes at Linchpin at low bitrates.

Nero AAC 1.3.3.0 -q 0.40

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.3
2009/03/07 16:02:18

File A: C:\Temp\Linchpin [Edit].flac
File B: C:\Temp\Linchpin q 0.40.mp4

16:02:18 : Test started.
16:02:30 : 01/01 50.0%
16:02:36 : 02/02 25.0%
16:02:47 : 03/03 12.5%
16:03:03 : 04/04 6.3%
16:03:12 : 05/05 3.1%
16:03:21 : 06/06 1.6%
16:03:30 : 07/07 0.8%
16:03:38 : 08/08 0.4%
16:03:46 : 09/09 0.2%
16:03:54 : 10/10 0.1%
16:04:01 : 11/11 0.0%
16:04:05 : 12/12 0.0%
16:04:11 : 13/13 0.0%
16:04:17 : 14/14 0.0%
16:04:28 : 15/15 0.0%
16:04:38 : 16/16 0.0%
16:04:44 : 17/17 0.0%
16:04:50 : 18/18 0.0%
16:05:03 : 19/19 0.0%
16:05:09 : 20/20 0.0%
16:05:10 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 20/20 (0.0%)


This was the sample that Helix choked on at the recent Mp3 listening test. Also Nero AAC seems to have same problem aswell, it sounds like something you would get from a Blade encoded mp3. The guitars warbles the looping drum beats sounds watery.

I re-uploaded the Linchpin sample, since some Nero AAC users might be interested to test it for themselves.

QUOTE (frozenspeed @ Dec 10 2008, 07:27) *
I can't hear the rain noise on my crappy laptop speakers but I sure do love Skinny Puppy smile.gif


Yeah there awesome, shame i just only discovered them a few months ago when i got Minitsry's singles boxset that had a live cover of Smothered Hope.

This post has been edited by /mnt: Mar 7 2009, 18:16
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Linchpin__Edit_.flac ( 1.71MB ) Number of downloads: 627
 


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EdgeofKaos
post Mar 10 2009, 20:38
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The Human Disease sample was easy to ABX with LAME 3.98.2 -V2.
The problem is obvious in the first second of the sample with smearing/pre-echo, meaning no sharp attacks.
First, I started off with V6 just to get aware of the problem and then went higher to V4 and then finally to V2 which very lightly improved but obviously not enough to produce transparency.

Here is the result of the ABX test at V2:

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6
2009/03/10 19:53:30

File A: G:\backup\mmedia\Human_Disease.flac
File B: E:\Human_Disease.mp3

19:53:30 : Test started.
19:55:38 : 01/01 50.0%
19:55:52 : 02/02 25.0%
19:56:09 : 03/03 12.5%
19:56:57 : 04/04 6.3%
19:57:13 : 05/05 3.1%
19:57:17 : 06/06 1.6%
19:57:21 : 07/07 0.8%
19:57:31 : 08/08 0.4%
19:57:55 : 09/09 0.2%
19:58:19 : 10/10 0.1%
19:58:27 : 11/11 0.0%
19:58:37 : 12/12 0.0%
19:58:39 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)


I'll try to ABX this later at -320 just for the kicks.. I mean, for the attacks. wink.gif
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/mnt
post Mar 11 2009, 04:12
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QUOTE (EdgeofKaos @ Mar 10 2009, 20:38) *
The Human Disease sample was easy to ABX with LAME 3.98.2 -V2.
The problem is obvious in the first second of the sample with smearing/pre-echo, meaning no sharp attacks.
First, I started off with V6 just to get aware of the problem and then went higher to V4 and then finally to V2 which very lightly improved but obviously not enough to produce transparency.


Glad to see someone else could pick out the horrid precho artifacts at the start of the sample. The sample is also easy to ABX at V0 on 3.97 and 3.98, for some reason at V0 with LAME 3.97 theres ringing, and at V0 with LAME 3.98 has no ringing but the precho artifact sounds a tad worse IMO and the extra 20kbps does not help at all. A sample like this makes me wonder why bother gaining a extra 50kbps avg bitrate per file for a little qaulity increase.

ABX logs:

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.3
2009/03/10 21:19:14

File A: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.flac
File B: C:\Temp\Human_Disease V0 LAME 3.97.mp3

21:19:14 : Test started.
21:19:45 : 01/01 50.0%
21:19:49 : 02/02 25.0%
21:19:56 : 03/03 12.5%
21:20:06 : 04/04 6.3%
21:20:15 : 05/05 3.1%
21:20:28 : 06/06 1.6%
21:20:38 : 07/07 0.8%
21:20:46 : 08/08 0.4%
21:20:52 : 09/09 0.2%
21:21:01 : 10/10 0.1%
21:21:09 : 11/11 0.0%
21:21:15 : 12/12 0.0%
21:21:16 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)


CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.3
2009/03/10 21:23:51

File A: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.flac
File B: C:\Temp\Human_Disease V0 LAME 3.98.mp3

21:23:51 : Test started.
21:24:23 : 00/01 100.0%
21:24:27 : 01/02 75.0%
21:24:35 : 02/03 50.0%
21:24:45 : 03/04 31.3%
21:25:15 : 04/05 18.8%
21:25:31 : 05/06 10.9%
21:25:41 : 06/07 6.3%
21:25:51 : 07/08 3.5%
21:26:04 : 08/09 2.0%
21:26:10 : 09/10 1.1%
21:26:27 : 10/11 0.6%
21:26:53 : 11/12 0.3%
21:27:07 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 11/12 (0.3%)


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EdgeofKaos
post Mar 11 2009, 06:42
Post #15





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Just as I had thought, this sample is also ABX-able with LAME 3.98.2 -b320 setting.
It was slightly better compared to V2 but not transparent again.
For me, what is ABX-able at V2, will usually also be ABX-able at -b320.

LAME 3.98.2 -b320:

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6
2009/03/11 06:07:49

File A: G:\backup\mmedia\Human_Disease.flac
File B: E:\Human_Disease.mp3

06:07:49 : Test started.
06:09:09 : 01/01 50.0%
06:09:19 : 02/02 25.0%
06:09:41 : 03/03 12.5%
06:10:04 : 04/04 6.3%
06:10:19 : 05/05 3.1%
06:11:01 : 06/06 1.6%
06:14:23 : 07/07 0.8%
06:18:23 : 08/08 0.4%
06:18:48 : 09/09 0.2%
06:19:29 : 10/10 0.1%
06:19:36 : 11/11 0.0%
06:19:49 : 12/12 0.0%
06:19:51 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 12/12 (0.0%)


P.S.: The name of the mp3 file is the same as before, but the file itself was overwritten with the -b320 setting. smile.gif
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/mnt
post Mar 11 2009, 11:59
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QUOTE (EdgeofKaos @ Mar 11 2009, 06:42) *
Just as I had thought, this sample is also ABX-able with LAME 3.98.2 -b320 setting.
It was slightly better compared to V2 but not transparent again.
For me, what is ABX-able at V2, will usually also be ABX-able at -b320.


Someone else found it ABX-able at 320kbps CBR!, this must be a real problem sample. I could just managed to ABX the full track version of this sample around last December at 320, but yesterday i have failed to ABX it again at 320. The sample is pretty bad for anyone that is sensitve to smearing and precho artifacts.

This post has been edited by /mnt: Mar 11 2009, 12:01


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rpp3po
post Mar 15 2009, 20:14
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/mnt, could you please let your golden ears try to identify a clearly ABX'able position in this encoding? I'm curious.
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rpp3po
post Mar 15 2009, 20:32
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I have a theory about why you could ABX all those encodings so easily. If it is true, you should have massive problems with this encoding.
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/mnt
post Mar 15 2009, 21:03
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QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 15 2009, 20:32) *
I have a theory about why you could ABX all those encodings so easily. If it is true, you should have massive problems with this encoding.

What encoding is this flac from? I know its lossy encoding with hardly no low-pass filter or something like that, i checked the md5sums from both orginal sample and your sample as wavs and they seem different.


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rpp3po
post Mar 15 2009, 21:07
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I'll tell you after you have drawn your conclusion. wink.gif Let's do this triple blind.
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/mnt
post Mar 15 2009, 21:09
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QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 15 2009, 21:07) *
I'll tell you after you have drawn your conclusion. wink.gif Let's do this triple blind.

Is the artifact at around 0:13, by any chance?


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/mnt
post Mar 15 2009, 21:14
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Anyway i performed the test about 15 mins ago:

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report

foobar2000 v0.9.6.3

2009/03/15 19:45:13



File A: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease (rpp3po sample).flac

File B: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.flac



19:45:13 : Test started.

19:45:49 : 01/01 50.0%

19:46:03 : 02/02 25.0%

19:46:13 : 03/03 12.5%

19:46:30 : 04/04 6.3%

19:46:42 : 05/05 3.1%

19:46:53 : 06/06 1.6%

19:47:13 : 07/07 0.8%

19:47:19 : 07/08 3.5%

19:47:24 : 08/09 2.0%

19:47:34 : 09/10 1.1%

19:47:46 : 10/11 0.6%

19:48:00 : 11/12 0.3%

19:48:07 : 12/13 0.2%

19:48:19 : 13/14 0.1%

19:48:37 : 14/15 0.0%

19:48:48 : 15/16 0.0%

19:48:55 : Test finished.



----------

Total: 15/16 (0.0%)


Sounds weak at around 0:13. And also at around 0:25 - 0:30, i thought i heard some kind of banging noise on my first test..


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rpp3po
post Mar 15 2009, 21:14
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QUOTE (/mnt @ Mar 15 2009, 21:09) *
QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 15 2009, 21:07) *
I'll tell you after you have drawn your conclusion. wink.gif Let's do this triple blind.

Is the artifact at around 0:13, by any chance?


My guess would be that you were right on the spot for all other samples but this one is finally unABXable. But do your own tests.
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/mnt
post Mar 15 2009, 21:37
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QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 15 2009, 21:14) *
QUOTE (/mnt @ Mar 15 2009, 21:09) *
QUOTE (rpp3po @ Mar 15 2009, 21:07) *
I'll tell you after you have drawn your conclusion. wink.gif Let's do this triple blind.

Is the artifact at around 0:13, by any chance?


My guess would be that you were right on the spot for all other samples but this one is finally unABXable. But do your own tests.

I did the test again at the start and it seems that the precho problem is gone at start:

CODE
foo_abx 1.3.3 report
foobar2000 v0.9.6.3
2009/03/15 20:28:14

File A: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease (rpp3po sample).flac
File B: C:\Downloads\Human_Disease.flac

20:28:14 : Test started.
20:28:45 : 00/01 100.0%
20:28:50 : 00/02 100.0%
20:28:55 : 00/03 100.0%
20:29:14 : 01/04 93.8%
20:29:21 : 02/05 81.3%
20:29:30 : 03/06 65.6%
20:29:42 : 03/07 77.3%
20:29:45 : 04/08 63.7%
20:29:58 : 04/09 74.6%
20:30:05 : 05/10 62.3%
20:30:10 : 06/11 50.0%
20:30:16 : 06/12 61.3%
20:30:24 : 06/13 70.9%
20:30:29 : 07/14 60.5%
20:30:34 : 07/15 69.6%
20:30:43 : 07/16 77.3%
20:30:51 : 08/17 68.5%
20:31:00 : 09/18 59.3%
20:31:04 : 09/19 67.6%
20:31:10 : 10/20 58.8%
20:31:11 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 10/20 (58.8%)


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rpp3po
post Mar 15 2009, 21:47
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Wow, how can you hear that? I wouldn't have expected this. I thought your key to success is solely a very high cut-off in combination with the shabby treatment of most codec presets of the >16k Hz range. I have found out that even the highest quality setting of QT's true VBR still cuts at 18k, which I don't appreciate. People being able to hear higher frequencies should at least be able to switch this off. This last sample was iTunes plus (256 kbit/s constrained VBR), which straightforwardly preserves anything until over 20khz.

So I have made some measurements to find out why in hell you can still hear a difference. There are several indications, that you are not cheating:

1. You have identified the same problem spots as the encoder shows with other settings without knowing it (the only exception would be that you have compared checksums against an iTunes plus encode - reading today's discussions could have put you on the track).

2. Metrical analysis of the sound material shows other hot spots and you haven't just reported those.

For further investigation I generated the delta file between the lossless and lossy version. For other tracks those have often been almost empty (except for high frequency bleeps and maybe several hotspots). In the case of your sample the delta file is completely filled with loud, audible material from the beginning. You instantly recognize the source track over the whole range. So this really is quite a problem sample. Maybe you should contact the developers.
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