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Topic: High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen (Read 11353 times) previous topic - next topic
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High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

I was wondering if anyone had some objective data or even and explanation as to why a high end processor would sound better then a low end processor/receiver. I understand that subjective listening plays a role in what people prefer and that some audiophiles look at audio more as a hobby but is there a hardware reason that impacts sound quality? I am not talking about double blind tests and the side that states everything sounds the same but as of yet I have not found any objective data that would justify this night and day difference. I have searched the internet for sometime and found a profile on photobucket that has quite a selection of photo's, yes some people will know the name but it is irrelevant, I will post them below. Mods if you want to change all the IMG pictures back into a text link that is ok.

If you are going to post something along the lines of the high end having a better design or using better parts could you please post some information to clarify those statements.

Thank you.




Theta digital casablanca III



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Arcam FMJ AVR600/FMJ AV888


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B&K reference 70


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Cary cinema 11a





Classe SSP-800


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Krell evolution 707


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Lexicon MC-12


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Mark Levinson Nº 40


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Mcintosh MX135 MX136


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High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #1
The explanation is simple. Do you feel inclined to post these pictures because those massive designs necessarily imply some advantage for you?

People actually do hear a difference while looking at their beloved, powerful units, but this ability vanishes instantly as soon as you hide from them, where the music is actually coming from, this gear or a high quality budget component at a fraction of the price.

Go for sane audio specs, features, and usability regarding this kind of gear. Spend the rest on speakers.

High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #2
There's a likely reason why you cannot find an objective reason.  It's probably because there are no objective reasons.

People throw all sorts of stuff out there to show there is an "objective reason" for all these audible differences.  Measurements, jitter, and heaven knows how much other stuff.  But so much of it crumbles under blind testing. 

Maybe the more expensive stuff does measure better.  But are these improvements audible?  To me these differences are a lot like arguing a chair that can hold a 2000lb person is better than the chair that can hold a 1500lb person.

Sure, maybe the 2000lb chair is better.  But I've never even met a 750lb person so how does it matter if I buy a chair that can holds 2000, 1500, or 1000 pounds?  It's the same with human hearing.  Human hearing is incredible.  But there are limits to what we can hear and making equipment that measures better and better is of questionable audible benefit when we cannot hear those improvements.

High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #3
There's a likely reason why you cannot find an objective reason.  It's probably because there are no objective reasons.

People throw all sorts of stuff out there to show there is an "objective reason" for all these audible differences.  Measurements, jitter, and heaven knows how much other stuff.  But so much of it crumbles under blind testing. 

Maybe the more expensive stuff does measure better.  But are these improvements audible?  To me these differences are a lot like arguing a chair that can hold a 2000lb person is better than the chair that can hold a 1500lb person.

Sure, maybe the 2000lb chair is better.  But I've never even met a 750lb person so how does it matter if I buy a chair that can holds 2000, 1500, or 1000 pounds?  It's the same with human hearing.  Human hearing is incredible.  But there are limits to what we can hear and making equipment that measures better and better is of questionable audible benefit when we cannot hear those improvements.


I think that the first question is "what does it take to make up a competent surround procesor"?

All surround decoding and all reasonble other signal processing can be done in the digital domain. Since the input to a surround processor is digital, the best quality will result when as much processing as possible is one digitally. Digital processing is highly cost-effective and great amounts of it can be done in small packages and quite inexpensively.

On the modern scale of extant volume-produced digital audio processing (e.g. a digital recording/live sound console), a surround processor is pretty trivial.

AFAIK, a surround processor's audio processing need only be composed of a digital line receiver, a DSP or several DSPs., maybe a microprocessor to handle the UI, enough DACs to provide the required 6-8-?? analog outputs, and the corresponding analog and/or digital buffers to drive the outputs.  That can be done with a handfull of chips. A sensibly designed surround processor should be either small or a big emty box. 

If video switching is included, OK a few more chips for switching and buffering video.

I presume that the more complex digital processors have a lot of analog processing, which seems dysfunctional. I would expect the gratuitous analog processing to reduce sound quality as compared to the same processing done in the digital domain. They may also include discrete output buffers which again push up the parts count but have no practical advantages over very small and economical chips.

Of all the processors shown, the Classe seems to make the most sense. However, if we look at the highly effective surround processors inside receivers, even the Classe seems to be wildly overbuilt, seeing that it has neither tuners, nor power amplifiers like a receiver would.

High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #4
Quote
The explanation is simple. Do you feel inclined to post these pictures because those massive designs necessarily imply some advantage for you?

People actually do hear a difference while looking at their beloved, powerful units, but this ability vanishes instantly as soon as you hide from them, where the music is actually coming from, this gear or a high quality budget component at a fraction of the price.

Go for sane audio specs, features, and usability regarding this kind of gear. Spend the rest on speakers.


I agree with what you are saying but I have posted this thread in a number of forums to try and understand why. The high end users and magizines always rant and rave about these night and day differences over basic receivers or non high end processors. But when one asks for a reason you are usually banned.

Quote
There's a likely reason why you cannot find an objective reason. It's probably because there are no objective reasons.

People throw all sorts of stuff out there to show there is an "objective reason" for all these audible differences. Measurements, jitter, and heaven knows how much other stuff. But so much of it crumbles under blind testing.


Every other reason that the high end comes up with has been dubunked and they always stick with that the analg stages in the high end are so much better but since they do not measure better I don't by into it.


High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #5
Every other reason that the high end comes up with has been dubunked and they always stick with that the analg stages in the high end are so much better but since they do not measure better I don't by into it.


You shouldn't buy into it.  Many manufacturers always make broad claims about "problems" and then find "solutions" to these problems.  For example, there is the rather stubborn myth that opamps sound bad.  The "solution" to this is to build some complex circuit without opamps and charge a lot for it.  The joke is, it's much easier to build a good (measurements, sound, etc) circuit with an opamp than to go the discrete route.  So some of the discrete solutions actually measure worse, but many people in audioland care more about a complex looking circuit board (they have to have some really big capacitors) than they care about measurements.

To me that's "High-End" and even "Mid-Fi" audio land today.  Expensive solutions to either theoretical or imagined problems.

As for all these differences people hear, they can be explained very simply by this video Penn and Teller on Bottled Water

High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #6
A rational explanation for the high end is provided by John_Siau at post #113 of the thread "(Not a) good explanation of jitter in TAS" in General Audio. To paraphrase, I hope accurately, his approach is to build as well as he can, far beyond levels of audibility of artefacts, to provide a safety factor. He says that this is a luxury he can afford himself, and I can understand that. He does NOT talk about "night and day differences", or any such tosh.

High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #7
I am not sure what the point of continuing this thread is.  Are you looking for justification for high prices of high-end gear?  Are you just curious, or are you trying to justify a purchase?

There are many reasons people spend money on things, and processors are no different.  Performance/features, exclusivity, aesthetic design, brand loyalty, ease of use, etc.  Often the claim of better audio performance is the justification given, and certainly for small companies at low volume of production their costs are much higher than mass production units from larger companies.

Remember value depends on how much money the beholder has.  If you are making $35k per year, a $10k processor is a major financial commitment.  If you earn $1 billion per year, then its an impulse buy.

There are a lot of good products out there, so the variety caters to all the different priorities, means and reasons people buy products.

While you may not place value on some of these attributes (say styling, exclusivity just as an example), others clearly do, so different strokes for different folks.
Was that a 1 or a 0?

High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #8
The same question as from the beginning, high end audio and its users keep raving about how the sound quality is so much better over a basic yamaha receiver and I am trying to find out if this is just another snake oil comment from the high end.

High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #9
The same question as from the beginning, high end audio and its users keep raving about how the sound quality is so much better over a basic yamaha receiver and I am trying to find out if this is just another snake oil comment from the high end.


If you spend months searching for answers and the only ones your find are "But I can hear it" that should tell you something.

Why are you still searching?  Couldn't your answer simply be that many audio reviews are just  BS?





High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #10
If you spend months searching for answers and the only ones your find are "But I can hear it" that should tell you something.

Why are you still searching?  Couldn't your answer simply be that many audio reviews are just  BS?


That is what I have come to find, high end audio is BS and the golden ear club is incompetent.

High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #11
A high end pre/pro will increase your penis size by three inches, no joke.















Sadly, you still won't have anywhere to put it afterward.

High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #12
Bump.


I recently switched amplifier in my setup, going from a $6000 Electrocompaniet AW250 to a $3000 Pioneer surround receiver. I guess most people on this forum thinks even the latter is a  total waste of money, but if we forget that for a moment:

I went to an amplifier that costs half as much. And in addition to the actual amplification circuits, the receiver also has a gazillion other features. I assume one would expect a radical reduction in sound quality, right?

To be honest, I would be hard pressed to hear a difference.

For reference, my speakers are B&W 804s.
Thorbjorn

High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #13
I recently switched amplifier in my setup, going from a $6000 Electrocompaniet AW250 to a $3000 Pioneer surround receiver. […] I assume one would expect a radical reduction in sound quality, right?

Not to take the audiophools' side but I would expect the former to be a 25+ year old product and the latter to be the result of as many years of advances in not only technology itself, but manufacturing costs as well. And yes, $3000 is more than what most people make in one month. Not the best example.

High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #14
I recently switched amplifier in my setup, going from a $6000 Electrocompaniet AW250 to a $3000 Pioneer surround receiver. […] I assume one would expect a radical reduction in sound quality, right?

Not to take the audiophools' side but I would expect the former to be a 25+ year old product and the latter to be the result of as many years of advances in not only technology itself, but manufacturing costs as well. And yes, $3000 is more than what most people make in one month. Not the best example.


The AW250 is still being produced and sold in 2009. http://www.electrocompaniet.no/products/po...amp/aw250r.html

I guess you are right in the fact that it hasn't gone through a lot of technical breakthroughs the last twenty years, but apparently lots of people still thinks it is worth the $6000 retail price.

And the advances in technology is somewhat the point, since most of the argument for the expensive prosessors were that they sound better, right? Good sound gets cheaper by the minute. You no longer (if you ever did) need an expensive processor and a highend power amp to produce high quality sound. If I should have a matching processor to go with the AW250 I guess it'd probably be in the $3000 pricerange alone, giving a total of $9000 for processor + amp. Now I'm happy with a combined box for 1/3 of the price.

I'm sure I could have gotten away with a cheaper receiver as well. However, I wanted to be sure I got an amplifier with enough power for my speakers (I did after all downgrade from 2x250W) + I wanted to test an ICE powered amp. Works great by the way.  (And I bought it second hand (3 months old) so I "only" spent 2500  )
Thorbjorn

High end processors VS low end processors/receivers, hardware differen

Reply #15
Bump.


I recently switched amplifier in my setup, going from a $6000 Electrocompaniet AW250 to a $3000 Pioneer surround receiver. I guess most people on this forum thinks even the latter is a  total waste of money, but if we forget that for a moment:

I went to an amplifier that costs half as much. And in addition to the actual amplification circuits, the receiver also has a gazillion other features. I assume one would expect a radical reduction in sound quality, right?


Why? There are many around here who believe that good amplifiers are sonically transparent, and therefore sound the same given that they are playing the same recording through the same player through the same speakers at the exact same location in the same room, etc., etc.

That's why many here might think that a $3K receiver is also a waste of money.