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Topic: Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's? (Read 19556 times) previous topic - next topic
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Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Hi.

My Sennheiser HD580 arrived today, and they work great straight out from my laptop headphone jack.


From all my prior reading, I can't realte to anything, because the I don't run out of volume on my computer for the headphones to be loud enough, nor do the headphones pick up any static and hisses other people report when plugging in headphones straight into their computers.


So what I want to get at is, will having an external usb amp/dac improve the sound quality in terms of the sound detail? It's just that I'm curious. By the way, if it helps, I listen to mostly classical music.


Edit: My current opinions on the headphones are, I think they seem slightly overrated, and they lack punch, the kind of punch I expect any high end headphones should have.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #1 –
Quote from: fatfassbinder on
So what I want to get at is, will having an external usb amp/dac improve the sound quality in terms of the sound detail? It's just that I'm curious. By the way, if it helps, I listen to mostly classical music.


Assuming you have a relatively (made in the last two years) laptop, you probably won't find any benefits in a controlled volume matched test comparing your laptop out to a seperate amp/dac combo.  If you are hearing clipping or distortion at your preferred volume level, then you might want to think about an amplifier.
 
Quote
Edit: My current opinions on the headphones are, I think they seem slightly overrated, and they lack punch, the kind of punch I expect any high end headphones should have.


I think you should define what you mean by lack of punch.  Personally, I felt the same way about the HD580 but my idea of punch may not be what you are talking about.  Remember that they are supposed to be "neutral" headphones and neutral headphones typically do not have the "punch" of many sonically colored headphones.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #2 –
Quote from: odigg on
Quote from: fatfassbinder on
So what I want to get at is, will having an external usb amp/dac improve the sound quality in terms of the sound detail? It's just that I'm curious. By the way, if it helps, I listen to mostly classical music.


Assuming you have a relatively (made in the last two years) laptop, you probably won't find any benefits in a controlled volume matched test comparing your laptop out to a seperate amp/dac combo.  If you are hearing clipping or distortion at your preferred volume level, then you might want to think about an amplifier.
 
Quote
Edit: My current opinions on the headphones are, I think they seem slightly overrated, and they lack punch, the kind of punch I expect any high end headphones should have.


I think you should define what you mean by lack of punch.  Personally, I felt the same way about the HD580 but my idea of punch may not be what you are talking about.  Remember that they are supposed to be "neutral" headphones and neutral headphones typically do not have the "punch" of many sonically colored headphones.



Hi. I'm not sure what you mean by clipping, and as with distortion, I think I get distortion when too much sound is making through my headphones at once, but I can't know for sure, since knowing what distortion is means that I must know how it should sound precisely which I don't.

Though, I can comfortably say, I don't get the kind of distortion where the music undoubtedly sounds wrong, by the way, all my music is FLAC. Also I can quite clearly hear the distortions in 128kbps audio from spotify, but I can't tell if it's the music on spotify or my headphones being connected directly to my laptop.

By 'punch' I was referring to how some music sounded with various other headphones before, but now sounds quite different with these. I think it's largely based on my assumptions of music through various other inexpensive headphones and speakers. So sorry, that was quite an ignorant comment from moi and I never thought it through because I wouldn't have posted it if I actually thought about what I was writing.

And also, as an aside question to you or whomever is reading this, is there anything I can do to get the most out of my headphones and get the best sound quality from my headphones connected to a laptop, aside from getting an amp. Such as software, or other things. By the way, I run Foobar2000 and I tested crossfeed like I mentioned in a previous thread, but somehow the music sounds less detailed, largely because the music doesn't seem to sound as if it's playing into my head, but playing at me from some distance, if that makes sense.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #3 –
The now legendary HD580's are well known for being high-quality, laid-back headphones.  By borrowing a worn out jargon, that means they're more suitable for listeners who want to listen to the piece of music "as the sound engineer/producer intended them to be listened to" (ie, with high fidelity) than actually this or that frequency range (usually the lower ones) being given too much emphasis - which I'll assume it's what you refer to as "punch" in your post.

A DAC might have the least impact on your everyday listening as it usually deals more with improving sample rates and signal-to-noise ratio per se - (think of it as a better soundcard than the one that's been shipped w/ your laptop);

An amp, on the other hand, will surely nourish them with that extra "juice" (power) they might need to deliver all those nuances and resolution that might be otherwise hidden among the generic sound you usually get from less powerful sources as it is usually the case with onboard chips. And as it is the rule, even the most basic amp will usually offer you bass and treble adjustments to taylor the output to your own personal taste.

Also bear in mind that the HD-580 have a nominal impedance of  300 ohms = what, in plain English, means your normal ipod or DAP cannot deliver all the power those cans need to shine - hence the need of an amplifier.

And in my own opinion (and contrary to audiophiles' consensus) it doesn't usually matter much if it's either a portable or non-portable one - as long as it's a quality one.

In regards to crossfeeding, Project Headbox make good amp-CF combos which have gathered very favorable reviews for several years - at least among the CF-loving public, that is.

EDIT: Hopefully your headphones' drives will have been well looked after along all this years by the previous owner (for the non-conversant reader, they've been phased-out several years ago and are only available on the second-hand market) and will still retain most of their original sound signature and present no distortion or flaw whatsoever.

You'd also benefit from changing the original cable with the sturdier (some claim better-sounding) HD-600's cable - just like I did to mine. I ordered mine from Sennheiser's excellent customer care people a few years ago and don't regret it at all.
Listen to the music, not the media it's on.
União e reconstrução

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #4 –
Quote from: includemeout on
The now legendary HD580's are well known for being high-quality, laid-back headphones.  By borrowing a worn out jargon, that means they're more suitable for listeners who want to listen to the piece of music "as the sound engineer/producer intended them to be listened to" (ie, with high fidelity) than actually this or that frequency range (usually the lower ones) being given too much emphasis - which I'll assume it's what you refer to as "punch" in your post.

A DAC might have the least impact on your everyday listening as it usually deals more with improving sample rates and signal-to-noise ratio per se - (think of it as a better soundcard than the one that's been shipped w/ your laptop);

An amp, on the other hand, will surely nourish them with that extra "juice" (power) they might need to deliver all those nuances and resolution that might be otherwise hidden among the generic sound you usually get from less powerful sources as it is usually the case with onboard chips. And as it is the rule, even the most basic amp will usually offer you bass and treble adjustments to taylor the output to your own personal taste.

Also bear in mind that the HD-580 have a nominal impedance of  300 ohms = what, in plain English, means your normal ipod or DAP cannot deliver all the power those cans need to shine - hence the need of an amplifier.

And in my own opinion (and contrary to audiophiles' consensus) it doesn't usually matter much if it's either a portable or non-portable one - as long as it's a quality one.

In regards to crossfeeding, Project Headbox make good amp-CF combos which have gathered very favorable reviews for several years - at least among the CF-loving public, that is.

EDIT: Hopefully your headphones' drives will have been well looked after along all this years by the previous owner (for the non-conversant reader, they've been phased-out several years ago and are only available on the second-hand market) and will still retain most of their original sound signature and present no distortion or flaw whatsoever.

You'd also benefit from changing the original cable with the sturdier (some claim better-sounding) HD-600's cable - just like I did to mine. I ordered mine from Sennheiser's excellent customer care people a few years ago and don't regret it at all.



In terms of an amp, I was previously looking for an amp/dac combo, but now from the replies, I think I'll buy just an amp. Project Headbox seems rather expensive, I was looking more on the side of something under £50, like a pa2v2 amp or a Hotaudio amp off ebay.

Yes, the headphones have been specially well looked after, they look pretty much brand new and It doesn't look as if they've been used at all. In response to changing the wire, I don't think I will, the wire looks brand new, and unless it falls apart, I think I'll stick to it.

Thank You for your response.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: includemeout on
A DAC might have the least impact on your everyday listening as it usually deals more with improving sample rates and signal-to-noise ratio per se - (think of it as a better soundcard than the one that's been shipped w/ your laptop);

An amp, on the other hand, will surely nourish them with that extra "juice" (power) they might need to deliver all those nuances and resolution that might be otherwise hidden among the generic sound you usually get from less powerful sources as it is usually the case with onboard chips. And as it is the rule, even the most basic amp will usually offer you bass and treble adjustments to taylor the output to your own personal taste.


Have you verified any of these claims in a blind volume matched test?  Most of these extra "nuances" that people hear suddenly vanish in a controlled test.  Modern onboard sound chips an motherboard amplifier circuits are quite capable of driving these headphones to loud volumes without clipping, distortion, or any loss of "nuances" as you have put it.

Quote from: fatfassbinder on
Hi. I'm not sure what you mean by clipping, and as with distortion, I think I get distortion when too much sound is making through my headphones at once, but I can't know for sure, since knowing what distortion is means that I must know how it should sound precisely which I don't.


Well clipping literally sounds like the sound has been cut off.  I'm not sure how to describe distortion, but I can give you an example.  Have you seen any small portable sound systems, like a cassette/CD deck?  At low volumes the music tends to sound fine.  But when you crank it up it becomes quite clear that the music isn't being reproduced properly through the speakers.  It starts distorting and sounding bad.

Keep in mind that some music (e.g. some heavy metal) is purposefully distorted to have a particular type of sound.  Other types of music have distortion/clipping because of poor mastering.  So you want to pick music that is not distorted in the recording if you want to see if your HD580 is distorting from your laptop's output.  Typically classical music is recorded well so you can use this to test.  Try local copies (e.g. FLAC) of some classical music. 

Considering that you have volume to spare from your laptop output I doubt your headphones are distorting.

Quote
And also, as an aside question to you or whomever is reading this, is there anything I can do to get the most out of my headphones and get the best sound quality from my headphones connected to a laptop, aside from getting an amp. Such as software, or other things. By the way, I run Foobar2000 and I tested crossfeed like I mentioned in a previous thread, but somehow the music sounds less detailed, largely because the music doesn't seem to sound as if it's playing into my head, but playing at me from some distance, if that makes sense.


There isn't much else you can do.  Foobar 2000 is a great piece of software.  I only use Dolby Headphone (crossfeed) when I have songs that have large differences between left and right channels.

On a side note, thanks for mentioning the hotaudio stuff.  I'd never heard of this company before and their prices for dacs and headphones amps is quite attractive in comparison to a lot of the other stuff out there.  I don't really support the need for this equipment, but at least I can point somebody towards these if they really want an amp or a dac without spending much money.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #6 –
@fatfassbinder

Could I suggest that the best thing you can do is listen to a lot of music through your nice HD580s, until you're really used to them. If you still feel the lack of "punch," you might consider using an equalizer, or possibly even trying other headphones. If there are no obvious problems with noise or inadequate volume, adding hardware will cost you time and money for a return which is exceptionally unlikely to be worth it.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: odigg on
Quote from: includemeout on
A DAC might have the least impact on your everyday listening as it usually deals more with improving sample rates and signal-to-noise ratio per se - (think of it as a better soundcard than the one that's been shipped w/ your laptop);

An amp, on the other hand, will surely nourish them with that extra "juice" (power) they might need to deliver all those nuances and resolution that might be otherwise hidden among the generic sound you usually get from less powerful sources as it is usually the case with onboard chips. And as it is the rule, even the most basic amp will usually offer you bass and treble adjustments to taylor the output to your own personal taste.


Have you verified any of these claims in a blind volume matched test?  Most of these extra "nuances" that people hear suddenly vanish in a controlled test.  Modern onboard sound chips an motherboard amplifier circuits are quite capable of driving these headphones to loud volumes without clipping, distortion, or any loss of "nuances" as you have put it.

(...)


Nope, I haven't I'm afraid. Although blind tests have proven many an audiophile claim as pure myth or BS, these headphones, when not properly driven, simply don't deliver all that jazz they're capable of.

If I said the difference is day to night, I'd be lying, but you know you were missing out on something when you hear them at their best:

are you a bass b**ch!? Crank it up (EQ? Bass knob!? - I know, I know...) and the 580's will make your R&B or whatever bassy sound is your fancy sound powerful but with minimal distortion and lack of resolution (up to humanly accepted limits, that is);

Do you like your female vocals sounding as smooth as an infant's bumbum!? You can make them purr on your ears by giving those cans the proper treatment - the list goes on...

Although I was disappointed by the odd cheaper Senn's in the past (I must have surely contributed to their business running smoothly on this side of the pond, so many I bought) is not a hefty price tag which will guarantee these or those headphones will sound as the angels' own trumpets: it's your very own personal preferences which will determine if you're either going to love or hate them (knock, knock).

But you'll only find out once you given them the real world treatment - power 'em up properly, says I! 
Listen to the music, not the media it's on.
União e reconstrução

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: fatfassbinder on
Hi.

My Sennheiser HD580 arrived today, and they work great straight out from my laptop headphone jack.


Where did you find new HD580s?

Thieves stole mine about a year ago but they are supposed to be out of production.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Where did you find new HD580s?
Thieves stole mine about a year ago but they are supposed to be out of production.


Why not get the HD600?  It's a 580 with some special sauce applied.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: odigg on
Quote from: includemeout on
A DAC might have the least impact on your everyday listening as it usually deals more with improving sample rates and signal-to-noise ratio per se - (think of it as a better soundcard than the one that's been shipped w/ your laptop);

An amp, on the other hand, will surely nourish them with that extra "juice" (power) they might need to deliver all those nuances and resolution that might be otherwise hidden among the generic sound you usually get from less powerful sources as it is usually the case with onboard chips. And as it is the rule, even the most basic amp will usually offer you bass and treble adjustments to taylor the output to your own personal taste.


Have you verified any of these claims in a blind volume matched test?  Most of these extra "nuances" that people hear suddenly vanish in a controlled test.

I never quite understood how extra power is supposed to improve resolution.

(Unless you use it to turn up the volume of course.  )

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: includemeout on
An amp, on the other hand, will surely nourish them with that extra "juice" (power) they might need to deliver all those nuances and resolution that might be otherwise hidden among the generic sound you usually get from less powerful sources as it is usually the case with onboard chips. And as it is the rule, even the most basic amp will usually offer you bass and treble adjustments to taylor the output to your own personal taste.


No offence, but it's always kind of funny to read all this audiophile talk about "enough juice" and "not enough juice".

Let's talk numbers. A headphone output jack on a laptop or MB usually provides around 1.5 V rms at the full volume. It's about 2 V amplitude wise. Divided by 300 Ohm load, this gives us ~7 milliamperes worst case. Practically any general purpose operational amplifier is able to provide this much within the audio frequency range without significant distortion (i.e., < 1% THD), no need to mention that headphone outputs are usually equipped with dedicated buffers able to provide much more. As for the power, 1.5 V rms across the 300 Ohm load gives approximately 7 milliwatts of electrical power. If I am not mistaken, HD580 have rated sensitivity of 97 dB/mW, which means that 7 mW should be enough to make one's ears hurt.

To sum it up: if the achieved loudness is adequate and there's no perceivable noise and/or distortion, then an extra amplifier will serve no useful purpose, except may be the convenience of having the analog volume control handy.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Quote from: fatfassbinder on
Hi.

My Sennheiser HD580 arrived today, and they work great straight out from my laptop headphone jack.


Where did you find new HD580s?

Thieves stole mine about a year ago but they are supposed to be out of production.



Sorry. I was unclear. They're not new. I manages to get them off ebay. But when they came (which was yesterday), they looked pretty much brand new.



Quote from: odigg on
Quote from: Arnold B. Krueger on
Where did you find new HD580s?
Thieves stole mine about a year ago but they are supposed to be out of production.


Why not get the HD600?  It's a 580 with some special sauce applied.



From everything I've read about HD600, It seems that the HD600 is pretty much HD580  with a grill or some other cosmetic changes. And according to various stuff I've read, they pretty much sound the same. And, I bought the HD580 off ebay for £105, HD600's go for ~£190.


Quote
So you want to pick music that is not distorted in the recording if you want to see if your HD580 is distorting from your laptop's output.  Typically classical music is recorded well so you can use this to test.  Try local copies (e.g. FLAC) of some classical music.



Oh,  I checked whether I was getting distortion with classical music in FLAC, and I do, even at normal volumes. First I thought this was because of the old recordings, but I tried more recent ones and I still get distortions. Especially when a lot of music is coming through the speakers all at once, by this I mean multiple instruments all going for it, like Beethovens 5th, actually, it happens to the majority of orchestral recordings.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: includemeout on
An amp, on the other hand, will surely nourish them with that extra "juice" (power) they might need to deliver all those nuances and resolution that might be otherwise hidden among the generic sound you usually get from less powerful sources as it is usually the case with onboard chips. And as it is the rule, even the most basic amp will usually offer you bass and treble adjustments to taylor the output to your own personal taste.

Also bear in mind that the HD-580 have a nominal impedance of  300 ohms = what, in plain English, means your normal ipod or DAP cannot deliver all the power those cans need to shine - hence the need of an amplifier.


I don't think you understand what impedance means.  Its the resistance to current flow, so higher resistance means its loading the amp less, not more.  If you want to strain an amp, get 16 ohm headphones.  But 300 ohms is practically line in, and everything on earth can drive a line in.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Mike Giacomelli on
I don't think you understand what impedance means.  Its the resistance to current flow, so higher resistance means its loading the amp less, not more.  If you want to strain an amp, get 16 ohm headphones.  But 300 ohms is practically line in, and everything on earth can drive a line in.

When the source has limited voltage, power varies inversely with impedance. Only if it is limited by its ability to drive current is power proportional to impedance.

The problem here is that many sound cards power their op-amps from 5 volts, so that limits the peak-to-peak voltage to a little less than that. Very high impedance headphones may need more voltage to reach maximum volume.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: fatfassbinder on
From everything I've read about HD600, It seems that the HD600 is pretty much HD580  with a grill or some other cosmetic changes.


And the changes were for worse.
Ceterum censeo, there should be an "%is_stop_after_current%".

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: pdq on
The problem here is that many sound cards power their op-amps from 5 volts, so that limits the peak-to-peak voltage to a little less than that. Very high impedance headphones may need more voltage to reach maximum volume.


Just how much more?  10mw (pretty loud for a headphone with 97db/mw sensitivity) at 300 ohms is ~2.5 volts peak to peak.

Quote
Oh, I checked whether I was getting distortion with classical music in FLAC, and I do, even at normal volumes. First I thought this was because of the old recordings, but I tried more recent ones and I still get distortions. Especially when a lot of music is coming through the speakers all at once, by this I mean multiple instruments all going for it, like Beethovens 5th, actually, it happens to the majority of orchestral recordings.


That's strange.  Do you have a pair of powered (it has an amplifier somewhere) speakers?  Do you hear those distortions there?

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #17 –
Hiya, first sorry to the posters who queried me on my previous reply for the long absence - I only had the time to come home and read this when it was quite late and only after spending way too much time at the foobar forum.

Quote from: gaekwad2 on
Quote from: odigg on
Quote from: includemeout on
A DAC might have the least impact on your everyday listening as it usually deals more with improving sample rates and signal-to-noise ratio per se - (think of it as a better soundcard than the one that's been shipped w/ your laptop);

An amp, on the other hand, will surely nourish them with that extra "juice" (power) they might need to deliver all those nuances and resolution that might be otherwise hidden among the generic sound you usually get from less powerful sources as it is usually the case with onboard chips. And as it is the rule, even the most basic amp will usually offer you bass and treble adjustments to taylor the output to your own personal taste.


Have you verified any of these claims in a blind volume matched test?  Most of these extra "nuances" that people hear suddenly vanish in a controlled test.

I never quite understood how extra power is supposed to improve resolution.

(Unless you use it to turn up the volume of course.  )



Quote from: alexeysp on
Quote from: includemeout on
An amp, on the other hand, will surely nourish them with that extra "juice" (power) they might need to deliver all those nuances and resolution that might be otherwise hidden among the generic sound you usually get from less powerful sources as it is usually the case with onboard chips. And as it is the rule, even the most basic amp will usually offer you bass and treble adjustments to taylor the output to your own personal taste.


No offence, but it's always kind of funny to read all this audiophile talk about "enough juice" and "not enough juice".

Let's talk numbers. A headphone output jack on a laptop or MB usually provides around 1.5 V rms at the full volume. It's about 2 V amplitude wise. Divided by 300 Ohm load, this gives us ~7 milliamperes worst case. Practically any general purpose operational amplifier is able to provide this much within the audio frequency range without significant distortion (i.e., < 1% THD), no need to mention that headphone outputs are usually equipped with dedicated buffers able to provide much more. As for the power, 1.5 V rms across the 300 Ohm load gives approximately 7 milliwatts of electrical power. If I am not mistaken, HD580 have rated sensitivity of 97 dB/mW, which means that 7 mW should be enough to make one's ears hurt.

To sum it up: if the achieved loudness is adequate and there's no perceivable noise and/or distortion, then an extra amplifier will serve no useful purpose, except may be the convenience of having the analog volume control handy.


None taken. But technicalities apart, I reckon I got a tad carried away in the odd audiophile blurb when simply trying to say that - and you ought agree with me on that - some headphones (and other equipment for that matter) DO sound different when coupled with this or that combination of amp/DAP and the like.  Running the risk of using another worn out one: sinergy, perhaps? 


Quote from: Mike Giacomelli on
Quote from: includemeout on
An amp, on the other hand, will surely nourish them with that extra "juice" (power) they might need to deliver all those nuances and resolution that might be otherwise hidden among the generic sound you usually get from less powerful sources as it is usually the case with onboard chips. And as it is the rule, even the most basic amp will usually offer you bass and treble adjustments to taylor the output to your own personal taste.

Also bear in mind that the HD-580 have a nominal impedance of  300 ohms = what, in plain English, means your normal ipod or DAP cannot deliver all the power those cans need to shine - hence the need of an amplifier.


I don't think you understand what impedance means.  Its the resistance to current flow, so higher resistance means its loading the amp less, not more.  If you want to strain an amp, get 16 ohm headphones.  But 300 ohms is practically line in, and everything on earth can drive a line in.


Mike, I make no effort to disguise I am not an expert or have the technical skills to get knee-deep into the bits and bobs of why impedance makes a difference. All I was trying to say is, from one HD580 owner to another, that I've tried these cans on different equipment and was usually more let down, the more compact and less powerful the output was.

On the technical side, users like pdq seem to be more qualified to raise the bar on the subject. I'm a mere listener who, as I said previously, tried these babes  over and over and got to a point where I felt "this really sounds better" - and did not spend an arm and a leg on audiophile equipment to achieve that whatsoever.
Listen to the music, not the media it's on.
União e reconstrução

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: includemeout on
But technicalities apart, I reckon I got a tad carried away in the odd audiophile blurb when simply trying to say that - and you ought agree with me on that - some headphones (and other equipment for that matter) DO sound different when coupled with this or that combination of amp/DAP and the like.  Running the risk of using another worn out one: sinergy, perhaps?


First, you should not combine headphones and loudspeakers (which, I suppose, you meant by "other equipment"). Generally speaking, headphones are much "easier" load for an amplifier to drive, since their impedance is higher, closer to purely resistive, and they don't need large amount of power to achieve required loudness level.

Still headphone impedance is not resistive, and depends on signal frequency to some degree. This means that if an amplifier has high output impedance of its own (most properly designed amplifiers do not), the perceived frequency response of the headphones will be altered. Also, the frequency response of the amplifier itself may slightly differ from one amplifier design to another (although the difference most likely will be outside the audible band).

However, stating that simply providing "more power" makes sound "better" is illogical: after all, if you are listening to the same headphones at the same pereceived volume levels, it means that the amount of power fed into headphones is approximately equal; even if one of the amplifiers is able to provide more power, you're actually not utilizing it.

If you clearly hear distortion with one of the amplifiers it's one thing, but if all you hear is a "slight improvement", then you should double(-blind) check yourself


Quote
I'm a mere listener who, as I said previously, tried these babes  over and over and got to a point where I felt "this really sounds better" - and did not spend an arm and a leg on audiophile equipment to achieve that whatsoever.


But you didn't conduct properly arranged blind listening tests, did you? And, prior to listening, you already knew that the headphones have to sound "better" with a "better" equipment, didn't you?

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #19 –
Quote from: odigg on
Just how much more?  10mw (pretty loud for a headphone with 97db/mw sensitivity) at 300 ohms is ~2.5 volts peak to peak.

I think you meant 2.5V peak, not peak to peak.

However, the only way to achieve this without clipping is if the signal is a single tone. For actual audio signals the peaks are considerably higher than 1.4x the RMS. A more realistic power level without distortion might be more like 2-3 mw.

I'm not saying that 5V is not adequate for driving 300 ohm headphones, having never tried it myself. I'm just saying that it is reasonable to question whether there might be some improvement in sound quality using a driver with greater voltage range.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: pdq on
I'm not saying that 5V is not adequate for driving 300 ohm headphones, having never tried it myself. I'm just saying that it is reasonable to question whether there might be some improvement in sound quality using a driver with greater voltage range.


Given that the OP tried it and apparently it was loud enough, I doubt there is any room for improvement.  More loudness is great, its just that most people don't actually want or need it from headphones. 

Quote from: includemeout on
Mike, I make no effort to disguise I am not an expert or have the technical skills to get knee-deep into the bits and bobs of why impedance makes a difference. All I was trying to say is, from one HD580 owner to another, that I've tried these cans on different equipment and was usually more let down, the more compact and less powerful the output was.

On the technical side, users like pdq seem to be more qualified to raise the bar on the subject. I'm a mere listener who, as I said previously, tried these babes  over and over and got to a point where I felt "this really sounds better" - and did not spend an arm and a leg on audiophile equipment to achieve that whatsoever.


I'm just saying that your opinion makes no sense and is almost certainly wrong.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #22 –
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I think you meant 2.5V peak, not peak to peak.


Yes, you are correct.

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I'm not saying that 5V is not adequate for driving 300 ohm headphones, having never tried it myself. I'm just saying that it is reasonable to question whether there might be some improvement in sound quality using a driver with greater voltage range.


Yes, I agree with you on this as well.  However, I've found that at sane (for me) volume levels a sound card seems to work fine.  Many people listen at volumes far louder than my preference.  So in that case an amp may be required.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #23 –
I think I'm going to buy an amp/dac combo just to see what all the fuss is about, since I've never owned one. I think it won't make any difference to the sound (apart from more volume), but I'll never know if I never try.

I'll let people know in a couple of weeks time, since it'll be shipped from America.

Do I need an amp/dac for HD580's?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: pdq on
Quote from: odigg on
Just how much more?  10mw (pretty loud for a headphone with 97db/mw sensitivity) at 300 ohms is ~2.5 volts peak to peak.

I think you meant 2.5V peak, not peak to peak.

However, the only way to achieve this without clipping is if the signal is a single tone. For actual audio signals the peaks are considerably higher than 1.4x the RMS. A more realistic power level without distortion might be more like 2-3 mw.

I'm not saying that 5V is not adequate for driving 300 ohm headphones, having never tried it myself. I'm just saying that it is reasonable to question whether there might be some improvement in sound quality using a driver with greater voltage range.


Before my HD580s were stolen, I found that they were less loud than I liked with an onboard PC sound card (max output = about 1 volt RMS) and a cheap MP3 player with a single battery (max output well under 1 volt). They were OK with my Nomad Jukebox that had a 4.2 volt lithium cell and put out just under 2 volts RMS and a headphone amp that ran off of 5 volts DC, which put out just a little more than the NJB3. YMMV.

I suspect that the headphone amp in a EMu 0202 USB audio interface or my new Presonus FW audio interface would be just as good if not better than the NJB3 or 5 volt powered headphone amp.

IME most of the angst about 580s not being loud enough have come from users of MP3 players that have their outputs intentionally limited to avoid ear damage with very efficient headphones.