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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
andrew22690
post Jul 3 2010, 20:43
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Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
I am ripping with EAC and encoding with Lame, (version 3.98). 99% of the time I get a perfect transition between tracks that are suppose to be gapless (I.E Pink floyd albums) but I have a few tracks that have a very very small tick or pop from one track to the next. EAC said copy was 100% perfect. I am using Foobar for P.C playback.

As i said it is not between every track just the odd one or two. Does anyone have any ideas? I have tried various releases of lame and EAC the Glitch is always in the same spot it and is not showing up in the WAV file, only the encoded Lame file

Thanks.
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greynol
post Jul 3 2010, 20:47
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Gapless playback without pops/clicks/etc. with lossy is not a guarantee. To make sure you don't have a problem with your EAC configuration, please post the contents of the log file. Make sure to encapsulate the contents of the log file in a codebox.
CODE
[codebox]...[/codebox]


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andrew22690
post Jul 3 2010, 21:42
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QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 3 2010, 21:47) *
Gapless playback without pops/clicks/etc. with lossy is not a guarantee. To make sure you don't have a problem with your EAC configuration, please post the contents of the log file. Make sure to encapsulate the contents of the log file in a codebox.
CODE
[codebox]...[/codebox]


When I get home from work tonight I will post an EAC log file but it's not EAC thats the problem it's the VBR Lame files. As per my 1st post the WAV files from EAC are perfect. I did read a post on Hydrogen audio that leads me to think it could be a VBR header thats to blame?

Thanks
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Canar
post Jul 4 2010, 03:14
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If you rip it to a single file with cuesheet, then encode that file to MP3, you can split using pcutmp3 to generate a different kind of gapless information than LAME provides. Doing this might fix your problem.


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andrew22690
post Jul 4 2010, 15:05
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QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 3 2010, 21:47) *
Gapless playback without pops/clicks/etc. with lossy is not a guarantee. To make sure you don't have a problem with your EAC configuration, please post the contents of the log file. Make sure to encapsulate the contents of the log file in a codebox.
CODE
[codebox]...[/codebox]



CODE
EAC extraction logfile from 9. June 2010, 1:20 for CD
Andy Partridge & Harold Budd / Through The Hill

Used drive : ATAPI DVD A DH16A6L Adapter: 0 ID: 1
Read mode : Secure with NO C2, accurate stream, disable cache
Read offset correction : 6
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No

Used output format : C:\Uberstandard Package - EAC - Lame\uberstandard\UberStandard\lame.exe (User Defined Encoder)
320 kBit/s
Additional command line options : -V 0 --vbr-new -q 0 -m s --add-id3v2 --pad-id3v2 --ta "%a" --tt "%t" --tg "%m" --tl "%g" --ty "%y" --tn "%n" %s %d

Other options :
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000


Track 1
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\01 - Hand 19.wav

Peak level 74.3 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 1F7109A4
Copy OK

Track 2
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\02 - Through The Hill.wav

Peak level 59.5 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Copy CRC DC9AE384
Copy OK

Track 3
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\03 - Great Valley Of Gongs.wav

Peak level 54.9 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 8440658C
Copy OK

Track 4
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\04 - Western Island Of Apples.wav

Peak level 58.1 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 40A44FA4
Copy OK

Track 5
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\05 - Anima Mundi.wav

Peak level 72.1 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 1B677000
Copy OK

Track 6
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\06 - Hand 20.wav

Peak level 82.3 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC A298EBC9
Copy OK

Track 7
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\07 - The Place Of Odd Glances.wav

Peak level 59.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC D779E72D
Copy OK

Track 8
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\08 - Well For The Sweat Of The Moon.wav

Peak level 77.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 9071238D
Copy OK

Track 9
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\09 - Tenochtitlan's Numberless Bridges.wav

Peak level 73.1 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Copy CRC F703DA32
Copy OK

Track 10
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\10 - Ceramic Avenue.wav

Peak level 70.4 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 6A691ABE
Copy OK

Track 11
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\11 - Hand 21.wav

Peak level 56.7 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Copy CRC AE3B3295
Copy OK

Track 12
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\12 - Missing Pieces To The Game Of Salt And Onyx.wav

Peak level 66.3 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC BCB99C36
Copy OK

Track 13
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\13 - Mantle Of Peacock Bones.wav

Peak level 83.8 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Copy CRC 148DF162
Copy OK

Track 14
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\14 - Bronze Coins Showing Genitals.wav

Peak level 81.8 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Copy CRC 01C0EF72
Copy OK

Track 15
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\15 - Bearded Aphrodite.wav

Peak level 74.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC B1B010AB
Copy OK

Track 16
Filename C:\My MP3's\These MP3's Need To Be Taged\Andy Partridge & Harold Budd - 1994 - Through The Hill\16 - Hand 22.wav

Peak level 78.7 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 29B53A99
Copy OK

No errors occured


End of status report


Here is a log file from one of my rips
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greynol
post Jul 4 2010, 20:48
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I missed the part about the wave files being ok.

Try Canar's solution. It's pretty well guaranteed to work.


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mixminus1
post Jul 4 2010, 23:35
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With fb2k, yes, and since that's what the OP is using, it should indeed work fine.

However, any time pcutmp3 and gapless are mentioned together, I think the standard caveat should always be mentioned for the sake of other readers/future searches/etc: the pcutmp3-split files will very likely play gaplessly *only* in fb2k due to the unusually large padding value. iTunes, iPods, Winamp, etc. will usually have audible gaps when playing such files.


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Diow
post Jul 5 2010, 03:25
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It's the gap detection go in EAC to: EAC --> Drive Options --> Gap Detection.
I'm using Detection Method A (Gap\Index Retrieval Method), Secure (Detection Accuracy).
That's the mode that in my drive doesn't introduces a tick on the begining of my rips... Test first changing the detection accuracy, if it works the problem is gone...


CODE
Exact Audio Copy V0.99 prebeta 5 from 4. May 2009

EAC extraction logfile from 16. May 2010, 19:08

Pink Floyd / The Dark Side of the Moon

Used drive : Optiarc DVD RW AD-7190A Adapter: 0 ID: 0

Read mode : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache : No
Make use of C2 pointers : No

Read offset correction : 6
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations : No
Used interface : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000

Used output format : User Defined Encoder
Selected bitrate : 128 kBit/s
Quality : High
Add ID3 tag : No
Command line compressor : C:\Program Files\foobar2000\Encoders\wavpack.exe
Additional command line options : -w "Artist=%a" -w "Title=%t" -w "Album=%g" -w "Year=%y" -w "Track=%n" -w "Genre=%m" -h %s %d


TOC of the extracted CD

Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector
---------------------------------------------------------
1 | 0:00.00 | 3:56.47 | 0 | 17746
2 | 3:56.47 | 3:35.05 | 17747 | 33876
3 | 7:31.52 | 7:04.70 | 33877 | 65746
4 | 14:36.47 | 4:47.13 | 65747 | 87284
5 | 19:23.60 | 6:22.22 | 87285 | 115956
6 | 25:46.07 | 7:50.15 | 115957 | 151221
7 | 33:36.22 | 3:25.55 | 151222 | 166651
8 | 37:02.02 | 3:50.35 | 166652 | 183936
9 | 40:52.37 | 2:03.13 | 183937 | 193174


Range status and errors

Selected range

Filename D:\CDS\Pink Floyd\(1973) The Dark Side Of The Moon (1993 Remaster)\Pink Floyd - The Dark Side of the Moon.wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Range quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC EDE66179
Copy OK

No errors occurred


AccurateRip summary

Track 1 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [C9363CDC]
Track 2 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [6838F041]
Track 3 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [B75B0D5C]
Track 4 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [17CF8498]
Track 5 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [1B249DBE]
Track 6 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [23721A57]
Track 7 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [439B80B2]
Track 8 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [6D51A3EA]
Track 9 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [FF5D0D31]

All tracks accurately ripped

End of status report


This post has been edited by Diow: Jul 5 2010, 03:27


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andrew22690
post Jul 5 2010, 15:00
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QUOTE (Diow @ Jul 5 2010, 04:25) *
It's the gap detection go in EAC to: EAC --> Drive Options --> Gap Detection.
I'm using Detection Method A (Gap\Index Retrieval Method), Secure (Detection Accuracy).
That's the mode that in my drive doesn't introduces a tick on the begining of my rips... Test first changing the detection accuracy, if it works the problem is gone...


CODE
Exact Audio Copy V0.99 prebeta 5 from 4. May 2009

EAC extraction logfile from 16. May 2010, 19:08

Pink Floyd / The Dark Side of the Moon

Used drive : Optiarc DVD RW AD-7190A Adapter: 0 ID: 0

Read mode : Secure
Utilize accurate stream : Yes
Defeat audio cache : No
Make use of C2 pointers : No

Read offset correction : 6
Overread into Lead-In and Lead-Out : No
Fill up missing offset samples with silence : Yes
Delete leading and trailing silent blocks : No
Null samples used in CRC calculations : No
Used interface : Native Win32 interface for Win NT & 2000

Used output format : User Defined Encoder
Selected bitrate : 128 kBit/s
Quality : High
Add ID3 tag : No
Command line compressor : C:\Program Files\foobar2000\Encoders\wavpack.exe
Additional command line options : -w "Artist=%a" -w "Title=%t" -w "Album=%g" -w "Year=%y" -w "Track=%n" -w "Genre=%m" -h %s %d


TOC of the extracted CD

Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector
---------------------------------------------------------
1 | 0:00.00 | 3:56.47 | 0 | 17746
2 | 3:56.47 | 3:35.05 | 17747 | 33876
3 | 7:31.52 | 7:04.70 | 33877 | 65746
4 | 14:36.47 | 4:47.13 | 65747 | 87284
5 | 19:23.60 | 6:22.22 | 87285 | 115956
6 | 25:46.07 | 7:50.15 | 115957 | 151221
7 | 33:36.22 | 3:25.55 | 151222 | 166651
8 | 37:02.02 | 3:50.35 | 166652 | 183936
9 | 40:52.37 | 2:03.13 | 183937 | 193174


Range status and errors

Selected range

Filename D:\CDS\Pink Floyd\(1973) The Dark Side Of The Moon (1993 Remaster)\Pink Floyd - The Dark Side of the Moon.wav

Peak level 100.0 %
Range quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC EDE66179
Copy OK

No errors occurred


AccurateRip summary

Track 1 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [C9363CDC]
Track 2 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [6838F041]
Track 3 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [B75B0D5C]
Track 4 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [17CF8498]
Track 5 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [1B249DBE]
Track 6 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [23721A57]
Track 7 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [439B80B2]
Track 8 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [6D51A3EA]
Track 9 accurately ripped (confidence 2) [FF5D0D31]

All tracks accurately ripped

End of status report


Its not the gap detection. Wav files ripped using the same settings and not encoded play perfectly with no gap or click between tracks.
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greynol
post Jul 6 2010, 06:17
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QUOTE (Diow @ Jul 4 2010, 19:25) *
It's the gap detection go in EAC to: EAC --> Drive Options --> Gap Detection.

Gap detection is quite different than the topic that's being discussed. We're talking about additional silence added to the beginning and ending of mp3 files, not the areas on a CD that are marked with a 00 index.


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andrew22690
post Jul 6 2010, 14:37
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QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 6 2010, 06:17) *
QUOTE (Diow @ Jul 4 2010, 19:25) *
It's the gap detection go in EAC to: EAC --> Drive Options --> Gap Detection.

Gap detection is quite different than the topic that's being discussed. We're talking about additional silence added to the beginning and ending of mp3 files, not the areas on a CD that are marked with a 00 index.


Is there a Programm that will get rid of the additional silence? I wonder why it's only on a select few files?
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pdq
post Jul 6 2010, 14:51
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QUOTE (andrew22690 @ Jul 6 2010, 09:37) *
QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 6 2010, 06:17) *
QUOTE (Diow @ Jul 4 2010, 19:25) *
It's the gap detection go in EAC to: EAC --> Drive Options --> Gap Detection.

Gap detection is quite different than the topic that's being discussed. We're talking about additional silence added to the beginning and ending of mp3 files, not the areas on a CD that are marked with a 00 index.


Is there a Programm that will get rid of the additional silence? I wonder why it's only on a select few files?

The small pop you hear is not related to additional silence. This silence is already eliminated by your player or else you would have much larger problems than small pops.

The small pop is due to separate encodes of the two tracks. The encoder is not matching the level at the end of the first track to the level at the start of the second track, thus the small pop at the junction of the two. The only sure way to eliminate this, as has been pointed out, is to encode them as a single track and then break the file up into separate tracks.
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andrew22690
post Jul 8 2010, 15:26
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QUOTE (pdq @ Jul 6 2010, 14:51) *
QUOTE (andrew22690 @ Jul 6 2010, 09:37) *
QUOTE (greynol @ Jul 6 2010, 06:17) *
QUOTE (Diow @ Jul 4 2010, 19:25) *
It's the gap detection go in EAC to: EAC --> Drive Options --> Gap Detection.

Gap detection is quite different than the topic that's being discussed. We're talking about additional silence added to the beginning and ending of mp3 files, not the areas on a CD that are marked with a 00 index.


Is there a Programm that will get rid of the additional silence? I wonder why it's only on a select few files?

The small pop you hear is not related to additional silence. This silence is already eliminated by your player or else you would have much larger problems than small pops.

The small pop is due to separate encodes of the two tracks. The encoder is not matching the level at the end of the first track to the level at the start of the second track, thus the small pop at the junction of the two. The only sure way to eliminate this, as has been pointed out, is to encode them as a single track and then break the file up into separate tracks.


Is there no other way to fix this problem? If this is common when encoding usin VBR then I am suprised that no one has come up with a fix.
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pdq
post Jul 8 2010, 15:37
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QUOTE (andrew22690 @ Jul 8 2010, 10:26) *
Is there no other way to fix this problem? If this is common when encoding usin VBR then I am suprised that no one has come up with a fix.

VBR has nothing to do with it. CBR is just as likely to have the problem. This is an encoder issue, and I suspect that other codecs besides mp3 also suffer from it.

The problem is that the encoder's task is to make THIS file sound as much like the original as possible, and beginning or ending at a particular level is not a requirement.
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greynol
post Jul 8 2010, 18:04
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QUOTE (andrew22690 @ Jul 8 2010, 07:26) *
If this is common when encoding usin VBR then I am suprised that no one has come up with a fix.

pdq gave you the correct answer (twice now), but you said it yourself, it isn't common...
QUOTE (andrew22690 @ Jul 3 2010, 12:43) *
99% of the time I get a perfect transition between tracks that are suppose to be gapless (I.E Pink floyd albums) but I have a few tracks that have a very very small tick or pop from one track to the next. EAC said copy was 100% perfect.
[...]
As i said it is not between every track just the odd one or two.



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Corsair
post Jul 8 2010, 21:35
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QUOTE (pdq @ Jul 8 2010, 16:37) *
QUOTE (andrew22690 @ Jul 8 2010, 10:26) *
Is there no other way to fix this problem? If this is common when encoding usin VBR then I am suprised that no one has come up with a fix.

VBR has nothing to do with it. CBR is just as likely to have the problem. This is an encoder issue, and I suspect that other codecs besides mp3 also suffer from it.

The problem is that the encoder's task is to make THIS file sound as much like the original as possible, and beginning or ending at a particular level is not a requirement.


One of the solutions I think could help would be to encode the beginning and the end of the WAV file at maximum bitrate (320 kbps) if the WAV does not start/end with silence, when using VBR. This should improve the accuracy on file transitions and the bitrate increase would be negligible (if any).

Other codecs suffer from this problem too, except (in my experience) Ogg Vorbis at -q6 (or higher, I tested aoTuV version) because I was unable to find any artifacts on file transitions.
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Canar
post Jul 9 2010, 00:47
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QUOTE (mixminus1 @ Jul 4 2010, 17:35) *
However, any time pcutmp3 and gapless are mentioned together, I think the standard caveat should always be mentioned for the sake of other readers/future searches/etc: the pcutmp3-split files will very likely play gaplessly *only* in fb2k due to the unusually large padding value. iTunes, iPods, Winamp, etc. will usually have audible gaps when playing such files.
Do you have evidence of this claim? I've never heard this. foobar2000 had to be modified to play them correctly, but I suspect that's only because Peter is such a stickler for details that he limited it to what he knew to be valid values.

QUOTE (Corsair @ Jul 8 2010, 15:35) *
One of the solutions I think could help would be to encode the beginning and the end of the WAV file at maximum bitrate (320 kbps) if the WAV does not start/end with silence, when using VBR. This should improve the accuracy on file transitions and the bitrate increase would be negligible (if any).
pcutmp3 does it perfectly, as it duplicates the data on either side of the transition. This should allow for gapless with no discontinuity ever, provided it's supported by the decoder.

This post has been edited by Canar: Jul 9 2010, 00:49


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andrew22690
post Jul 9 2010, 19:41
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[/quote]pcutmp3 does it perfectly, as it duplicates the data on either side of the transition. This should allow for gapless with no discontinuity ever, provided it's supported by the decoder.
[/quote]


pcutmp3 would seem to be the way to go but am having problems getting it installed
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trout
post Jul 18 2010, 18:19
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QUOTE (andrew22690 @ Jul 3 2010, 15:43) *
...and is not showing up in the WAV file, only the encoded Lame file

It may be helpful if you could upload some WAV samples to see if the problem can be reproduced, or for any possible clues within the samples. Like 10 seconds from each track on either side of a gapless transition where the problem exists. (be sure to mind the upload rule: ''No over 30 sec clips of copyrighted music.'')

QUOTE (andrew22690 @ Jul 4 2010, 10:05) *
CODE
Additional command line options : -V 0 --vbr-new -q 0 -m s

An observation apart from the gapless issue; Are you sure all of those commands are a good idea?
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db1989
post Jul 18 2010, 18:58
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QUOTE (trout @ Jul 18 2010, 18:19) *
QUOTE (andrew22690 @ Jul 4 2010, 10:05) *
CODE
Additional command line options : -V 0 --vbr-new -q 0 -m s
An observation apart from the gapless issue; Are you sure all of those commands are a good idea?
-q0 is redundant, as values from 0-3 are equivalent under --vbr-new.
-ms is never a good idea, but equally we'll never get a break from having to tell people that. wink.gif
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andrew22690
post Jul 19 2010, 06:06
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New Command line

CODE
-V0 --add-id3v2 --pad-id3v2 --ta "%a" --tt "%t" --tg "%m" --tl "%g" --ty "%y" --tn "%n" %s %d


Click gone problem solved. Many thanks to those that tried to help.

This post has been edited by andrew22690: Jul 19 2010, 06:07
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Glenn Gundlach
post Jul 19 2010, 06:18
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QUOTE (andrew22690 @ Jul 3 2010, 11:43) *
Small Pop between tracks using Lame VBR- V-0
I am ripping with EAC and encoding with Lame, (version 3.98). 99% of the time I get a perfect transition between tracks that are suppose to be gapless (I.E Pink floyd albums) but I have a few tracks that have a very very small tick or pop from one track to the next. EAC said copy was 100% perfect. I am using Foobar for P.C playback.

As i said it is not between every track just the odd one or two. Does anyone have any ideas? I have tried various releases of lame and EAC the Glitch is always in the same spot it and is not showing up in the WAV file, only the encoded Lame file

Thanks.


I've run into commercial recordings that have DC offsets recorded into the data. If for some reason you have a transition from the DC offset track to a true 0 offset track, you will hear a small click at the transition. I'm an Audition guy and identifying/correcting offsets with Audition ( CoolEdit ) is incredibly easy. Other software is probably easy as well but I have no experience.

G
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db1989
post Jul 19 2010, 10:31
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But such a DC offset caused click would occur between the source WAV files too, which the OP stated does/did not occur. The problem has been identified as being due to LAME not accounting for any lossily-introduced difference between two tracks' last and first samples respectively.

andrew22690, I wonder how your new command line fixed the issue; it doesn't look to me to have anything that would affect this behaviour.
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andrew22690
post Jul 20 2010, 03:48
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Jul 18 2010, 19:58) *
QUOTE (trout @ Jul 18 2010, 18:19) *
QUOTE (andrew22690 @ Jul 4 2010, 10:05) *
CODE
Additional command line options : -V 0 --vbr-new -q 0 -m s
An observation apart from the gapless issue; Are you sure all of those commands are a good idea?
-q0 is redundant, as values from 0-3 are equivalent under --vbr-new.
-ms is never a good idea, but equally we'll never get a break from having to tell people that. wink.gif


What is the purpose of ms in the command line?


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andrew22690
post Jul 20 2010, 03:52
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QUOTE (dv1989 @ Jul 19 2010, 11:31) *
andrew22690, I wonder how your new command line fixed the issue; it doesn't look to me to have anything that would affect this behaviour.


Yes!!I got all exited when I couldn't hear the Gap/click, turns out it was still there, although very much reduced.
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