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Topic: Can MP3 ever DIE out?? (Read 10069 times) previous topic - next topic
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Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Just the topic says:

Can MP3 ever die out? Can it even die?

Not that I want it to go away, but it seems there are better formats than MP3 now and it seems its time to move on. I understand the market penetration MP3 has achieve within its relatively long (or short) life (anything 5 years old in software equates to 50 years in human years).

Cheers
AgentMil
-=MusePack... Living Audio Compression=-

Honda - The Power of Dreams

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #1 –
Well, this has been discussed many times before,

I know few formats that are better than MP3:

1. Ogg - Better (or will be) at any bit rate
2. AAC - Better at any bit rate
3. MPC - Better at high bit rates


1. Is open-source, free and has support from the opensource community

2. Is open-source, also (at least the reference implementation and one Open Source effort), but it is not free (it is very expensive) but it has industry support (MPEG, SDMI, Japanese all-digital-broadcast, DRM, etc..)

3. Decoder is open source (nobody stops you writing your own MPC encoder, though), and it is supported by small group of audiophiles because among these three has the smallest complexity and tends to have the smallest number of non-transparent samples.

Now, the flexibility -

1. AAC (has greatest flexibility in terms of format capabilities)
2. Ogg (similar to 1, but with some tools missing)
3. MPC (not very flexible at the moment)


My prediction is that Ogg will proabaly become very popular for average users and music fans. AAC will stay at the restrictive market of secure music and digital transmissions (like digital TV, digital radio, etc..) and MPC will be used by audiophiles.

MP3 will probably never die completely, even MPEG companes want to get rid of it (AT&T and Dolby especially, and FhG probably) but the format penentration is so big that it will take a couple of years to completely replace it in new software - but old archives with MP3 files will stay for many years...

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #2 –
That was exactly what I was thinking Ivan!!!

I see MP3 as VHS, like there is better but people still stick to the tried and tested one.

I see OGG as DVD, its better and its user base is growing!

I see MPC as ...... (I don't know of a comparable thing to compare MPC with )

I have whole heartedly agree with Ivan with what he said about MP3 and the other competing codec systems.

Cheers
AgentMil
-=MusePack... Living Audio Compression=-

Honda - The Power of Dreams

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #3 –
It is kinda hard to predict where are things going... For example, in audio+video market we have this situation:

Old tech: MPEG-1 and MPEG-2

New Tech:

1. MPEG-4 (AAC Audio + MPEG-4 Video, in near future H.264)

2. Windows Media (WMA Audio + Windows Media Video)

3. Real System (huh.. is it VP4 video? and who-knows-what audio?)


My vote is certaily for 1. because it is completely open, even open-source (for lower quality implementations) but 2. has great potential because it is backed up by big Microsoft, and 3. is also very popular... what now?

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #4 –
Just my two cents:

I think it will take a very long time for MP3 to die out.  Not many people care about audio quality enough to go searching around for better alternative or ways to make the current format (MP3) sound better.  The only way I even found out that OGG or MPC or the other formats even existed was when I went looking for a way to make my MP3's sound better.  I found the r3mix board and then I moved over here and the rest is history.  I think what will drive a mass movement away from MP3 will be companies pushing the other formats onto consumers.  The Rio players supporting WMA and the IRiver player soon supporting OGG are examples of that.  But still, so many people who use these players have no idea that the other formats even exist, even if their hardware will play it.  I don't know how MP3 will ever be killed...until then I'm very happy with my Rio Volt and my CD's with alt preset standard:D

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #5 –
Hi Ivan,

Is there anywhere on the internet to read about the development of H.264 that you could recommend?

Thanks,
-Nic

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #6 –
I think MP3's a keeper. The reason being that (to my knowledge) MPC and OGG (I've never tried AAC) don't have 22kHz modes.

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #8 –
Quote
Originally posted by NeoRenegade
I think MP3's a keeper. The reason being that (to my knowledge) MPC and OGG (I've never tried AAC) don't have 22kHz modes.


AAC has support for:

8000, 11025, 12000, 16000, 22050, 24000, 32000, 44100, 48000, 64000, 88200 and 96000 Hz sampling rates, with bit-rates ranging from 8 to 512 Kbps for a single audio channel.

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #9 –
Quote
Originally posted by NeoRenegade
I think MP3's a keeper. The reason being that (to my knowledge) MPC and OGG (I've never tried AAC) don't have 22kHz modes.


Ogg supports 22khz perfectly. Or any samplerate for that matter. I even have some 38000Hz Oggs .

I'm not so sure it was included in the standard encoder, but the libraries themselves handle it without problems.

--
GCP

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #10 –
Quote
Originally posted by Ivan Dimkovic
3. Real System (huh.. is it VP4 video? and who-knows-what audio?)


I believe RealAudio 8 uses Atrac3 at high and mid-range bitrates, and ACELP-NET at  low bitrates (Voice mainly).

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #11 –
Ah yes - it is ATRAC3, now I remember

Anyway when discussing about audio coding format future we must keep in mind two things:

- Internet, and consumer audio -

1. Users want open, easy-to-use, ripping-enabled solution

2. Industry wants secure, paid, not-very-easy-to-use and strictly controlled ripping ability

So, if we go for 1, the answer might be Ogg, MPC or opensourced MP3 solutions like LAME (with patent issues)

For 2, well there are three solutions, LiquidAudio (AAC), Microsoft (WMA) and RealSystem

Which of these two will dominate? Hmm... time will tell, I am not sure yet. Probably we will have two worlds, one well-secured and other free, open-source and patent-free.

- Professional audio equipment, digital broadcasting -

There is no debate here, Dolby AC-3 and MPEG-2/4 AAC are designed for that purpose and the companies making this kind of equipment strictly use ISO or ITU standards (or common established standard like AC-3). AAC is much better than AC-3 at any bitrate, and even Dolby admits this (althogh they play with the words sometimes). Plain old MPEG Layer II is also used in some rusty old equipment (like DAB)


- Integrated audio+video solutions -

Again, for MPEG-4 AAC is chosen to be wideband audio delivery standard. We also have Dolby AC-3 used in digital cinema, and loseless audio in more advanced solutions.

Microsoft is trying to push hard with their 'corona' (is it the name?) project for home DVD-like multimedia, but we will see what will happen with this one. MPEG-4 with H.26L and MPEG-4 AAC will probably be far superior than MS stuff.

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #12 –
I'd say MP3 will be around for a long time to come.  Why?  128kbps mp3s are transparent to a surprisingly large percentage of casual music listeners (sure, most of them could probably tell differences if they tried to, but most don't try, so don't care).  I have enough difficultly convincing my friends to encode their cds at 192kbps CBR instead of 128kbps CBR (and have only managed to convince one so far to use LAME with --alt-preset standard).  It'd be quite a feat to convince them to switch to another format entirely, that isn't supported by: 1) their portable players, 2) their audio-CD burning software, 3) Winamp's default install (though Ogg may be soon, from what I hear).  Sure, they'd listen to all my explanations, but they'd be unlikely to convince them.  If they wanted more quality, they could always increase to 256kbps CBR, for example, or to LAME --alt-preset extreme, but they don't even want to make that much of a switch for quality (even though it's still MP3), so why would they switch to another format for quality?

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #13 –
I think (especially after the 3.90 release) that Lame will be the Standard for quite a long time, due to the cool features like VBR, presets etc.. In five years or so, when Ogg reached a lame-a-like level in stability and of course popularity, the situation will change and vorbis will become the No. 1 Audio Format (and Tarkin probably the video) . Until that day I'm fine with lame --alt-preset standard
X
"To understand me, you'll have to swallow a world." Or maybe your words.

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #14 –
Given this, will LAME ever become a fully featured MP3 encoder in that it can support encoding at low bitrate (intensity stereo) and at high bitrates (it already has)?
-=MusePack... Living Audio Compression=-

Honda - The Power of Dreams

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #15 –
Quote
Originally posted by AgentMil
Given this, will LAME ever become a fully featured MP3 encoder in that it can support encoding at low bitrate (intensity stereo) and at high bitrates (it already has)?


And could SBR be added to Lame, once the technology becomes ISO?

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #16 –
SBR will be added to MPEG-4, if it becomes accepted by MPEG commitee (there are other technologies that were submitted for review, maybe some of these sound better than SBR) - so I don't think it will be suitable for MP3Pro compatibility.

Regarding intensity stereo - this is a very hot topic - it is used in FhG encoders for MP3 encoding, but FhG completely dumped IS in their AAC encoders, and they do not use IS at all! This means that they decided (found out) that IS actually makes more problems than it solves.  Some other AAC vendors do use Intensity Stereo - it is all matter of implementation. I personally hate IS since it makes terrible stereo image and phasing problems are very annoying. Many files sound like stereo image is is collapsed.

IS is not required in MP3, so LAME is fully featured MP3 encoder even without IS. Lame also do not support Mixed Blocks, but as IS, they are not required.

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #17 –
Quote
Originally posted by Ivan Dimkovic
It is kinda hard to predict where are things going... For example, in audio+video market we have this situation:

Old tech: MPEG-1 and MPEG-2

New Tech:

1. MPEG-4 (AAC Audio + MPEG-4 Video, in near future H.264)

2. Windows Media (WMA Audio + Windows Media Video)

3. Real System (huh.. is it VP4 video? and who-knows-what audio?)


My vote is certaily for 1. because it is completely open, even open-source (for lower quality implementations) but 2. has great potential because it is backed up by big Microsoft, and 3. is also very popular... what now?


MPEG4 no longer has big support from Microsoft. In their new Windows Media Encoder you have to dig damn hard just to find the option to use it. Plus they have not worked on it much in several years so it has fallen behind. Microsoft would much rather that you restrict yourself to their monopoly and use their crappy WMV and WMA codecs along with their worse ASF format.

Microsoft may have had the implementation that started it all. But that is all in the past. Their greed is forging their own destruction. A destruction that I am happy to be a proud harbinger of.

As for MP3 yeah it is going to be arround a while. Many of us started using it back in the early 90's and a large portion of the population has only just come upon this compression in the latter 90's early 2000/2001. Though we need to work to spread awareness of better methods and alternatives. Once presented with the blossoming support for Vorbis and AAC and the obvious advantages they present who would want to stay ignorant? Ok ok there would be a few, but the majority would indeed want to switch!

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #18 –
I totally second this opinion. My own experiences show that most of the people around are willing to learn and accept new and better ways. Take lame as the best example, most of the people i suggest to use lame are happy with it and keep using it. Only a few and they are really not much, keep using audiocatalyst and so on.
Vorbis gained much popularity too as i can see on my own ogg page, 1100 visitors in only 2 weeks, i know thats not much, but hey, who am i to have 5000 visits a day  Let the revolution continue , let M$ and all those big greedy companies die!

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #19 –
I don't want mp3 to die. mp3 was behind the huge growth in internet music sharing - may it live long and prosper. If mp3 hadn't grown like it has, I don't think there would have ever been much development in better codecs like MPC and OGG.

Both of these two should have a place in the future. I think MPC will thrive as a high-end codec for people who want to run there home systems off >200 kbps streams, but still have all the functionality of a computer system - cataloging, all on one drive, replaygain, etc, etc.
Ruse
____________________________
Don't let the uncertainty turn you around,
Go out and make a joyful sound.

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #20 –
I dont think mp3 will die out within a few years-> agree with some earlier writers. The format is too widely used and supported. I even know people who encode using Xing... (AAAARGH!!!). I whould prefere MusePack, or Ogg. I think, in the end, Ogg will win...
[span style=\'font-family:Arial\'][span style=\'color:red\']Life Sucks Deeply[/span][/span]

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #21 –
Quote
Originally posted by Jospoortvliet
I dont think mp3 will die out within a few years-> agree with some earlier writers. The format is too widely used and supported. I even know people who encode using Xing... (AAAARGH!!!). I whould prefere MusePack, or Ogg. I think, in the end, Ogg will win...


Xing? WTF? Go slap em silly remove all their Xing and replace it with Lame!

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #22 –
Let's not forget the lossless bunch. With HDs getting bigger and bigger and with DVD-Rs becoming more accessible, more and more people will also use lossless audio codecs. Ofcourse I don't expect that lossless will be mainstream anytime soon...
For the next 5 years I still see MP3 being the most used codec, followed closely by OGG. Other codecs will have much smaller user base.

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #23 –
heck, if you've ever read Andree's site, he says that he started writing MP+ after his dissatisfaction with MP3 encoders.

Can MP3 ever DIE out??

Reply #24 –
Look back on any major (and not so major) technology we had in the past few decades: Before it was replaced with something somewhat better, any old technology was first perfectioned and only later became obsolete. Much later.

You can go very far back to check this out...early users of bronze only had a limited knowledge of the way this material could be processed...later generations would then add other indigrients (perfecting) before switching to iron...much much later. Comparing early & late bronze works shows the big progress being made during this time.

You're still reading? Alright, here we go the 20th century: Although improved technologies could long ago have replaced existing technologies, the old tech is still very much alive. Examples? Cars are still using steering wheels, physically connected to the axes, rather than using modern electronic technology (controlled by a joystick for instance).

Let's jump into the computer age: We're still using x86 CPUs, a concept dating back about 20 years. My new Tyan Tiger MPX still counts up to 639K and then the remaining GBs separately.

There are still people being introduced to the 'new' technology of MP3 as we speak...it will lose market share (as early adopters switch away from it) but its usage hasn't seen its peak yet.